Ah Merrick, cast all the doubt you want on S., his ability to commit, or Jennifer's decisions. But please leave me out of it . . .
Quote: In many respects, I think you're in H2H land, just going with the flow one day at a time.
I'm doing the best that I can and it is apparent that my lifestyle does not suit you. Alas, I'm not here to live according to anyone else's 'rules' but my own.
Yes, for me life is made up of one moment at a time. I do focus on the here and now, and try to take life one day at a time. This works for me. I take issue with your implication that "just going with the flow" is not good enough. But I accept that it just may well be the case for you.
I may not have the relationship I would like or even one that comes near your definition of a marriage. But I do have a rather warm & tender R with a man that I love. We are truly friends and for that I am grateful. We are kind & caring to one one another. On the other hand, you have a Marriage and Commitment, but I don't see the care & tenderness. And that is just not enough for me.
How about we just agree to disagree? If it is not obvious by now, I'm happy to state clearly that our end goals differ significantly.
I do agree that commitment does indeed take work. However, I don't see it so much as an off/on switch that once turned on you can easily suspend all doubt and second thoughts. I believe we all have moments of doubt and when cornered for a response are likely to respond something that doesn't come out quite right. I see S. & Jennifer having a loving R, in which they are at the very least talking about the issues and barriers they both have in getting to the "C word".
I also think we come here for support - which does include the 'tough' questions, but not necessarily doubt for doubt's sake alone. Sorry Jennifer, now back to the regularly scheduled program.
Ah, H2H, don't be so hard on Merrick! I think he's just expressing what many of us married-with-kids feel about you not-yet-marrieds - we hate to see you settle for anything less than someone who thinks the sun rises and sets on you.
C'mon, the whole "Do you love me" convo is a setup. Nothing S could have said would have been right (and he's not stupid - he knows that).
Instead of acting like he said all the wrong things, how about apologizing for projecting your insecurities onto him? Maybe next time you can share your feeling of insecurity without putting the burden on him to fix it.
Merrick must be living on bread and water. He's sounding awfully jealous of that dairy farm.
Hi Jennifer - What an AMAZING weekend, I can't wait to see your analysis Seeing that I have some time sans NG hovering around, I'll venture some thoughts.
Quote: We started really getting heated in our discussion, and S. pointed out that it showed how little trust and understanding we had for each other, that I was immediately assuming bad intentions [an oldie but a goodie] and how he was immediately getting defensive and hostile.
I see many, many similarities between NG and S. The same issues, differences, tackled at a better time, when he is in a more suitable mood, seems to get EXACTLY the results I need. Yup, I used to feel like my needs were not being respected, but y'knaw, as Ellie quite prosaicly put it, did I want to be right, or be with NG I discovered pride was an optional luxury for me - and since then, life has been MUCH more rewarding. It may not be as simple a choice for everyone, but I guess understanding the underlying dynamics is the important thing.
Quote: After about 30 minutes I said I’d like to go to bed (NOT continuing the conv we’d started fighting about, which was a 180 for me). He was very affectionate and close in bed,
Awesome 180
Quote: He was very affectionate and close in bed, and asked the tried-and-true “What are you thinking?”
This is such a DEADLY question - the only answer should be 'that's for me to know and you to wonder' in a flirtatious manner All that was said and done after that should be wiped clean - it's a cheeseless tunnel, IMO
Quote: He was cleaning the kitchen when I arrived, and said he’d be out of my way in a minute. I said “Oh, no, pizza is an all-hands-on-deck activity,” to which he smiled, and caught me as I walked by to give me a hug
Incredible how just that 'no escape' routine altered the dynamics Grand save, Jennifer
The rest of your update smacks of two people getting closer together. Ahhh
I didn't mean to cast doubt on you personally and think you are doing wonderfully. I also don't think this is a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. I've tried to be very up front with you and Jennifer that the context of the R you are seeking or engaged in has profound implications for the ultimate choices we make.
And I'm sorry if many people feel differently, but in the view of many people here, the difference between a marital relationship and an exclusive non-marital one is the difference between the Catskills and Everest. The dynamics of climbing a mountain may be the same, but the level of commitment, perseverance, desire, and personal sacrifice are monumentally more significant to climb Everest. If a person can find complete fulfillment in climbing in the Catskills, I'm happy for them and don't belittle them because they chooses not climb Everest. But if you're thinking about Everest, I think people have to be fully cognizant of the extraordinary effort it takes to get to the top. To be sure, learning to climb in the Catskills may be an important building block to climb Everest, but still, Jennifer has expressed an interest in getting to the top of Everest and her Cherpa has given indications that for now, while reaching the summit in an interesting thought, he is only prepared to go to one of the staging areas. He is just not ready and the potential for a real tragedy is in the making if they force themselves ahead without the absolute commitment to do whatever it takes to get there.
Now, there are many people today who see marriage as disposable (please, I'm not saying you're one of them) and simply an elevated form of an otherwise exclusive R--but not necessarily permanent. To me, non-permanence will become a self-fulfilling prophecy because as a general rule, that mindset necessarily presupposes one will not do whatever it takes to make the R.
So, when I compare Jen to you, it is only in the context of that you two are not married, have not made any decisions in that regard, and consequently, must guide your actions based on more uncertain prospects for what the future holds and what you are willing to accept and not accept. And on that--you have been outstanding in looking inward and making your best judgments as to what makes you happy and how you interact with others. I have nothing but praise for you in this regard, but not really much offer in your R dynamics because the paths you and SO are on are so different than mine.
Returning to Jennifer, I can honestly say from a male perspective (and some women share this as well), that having your physical needs met without any meaningful (I hope that's not too loaded a term) obligation in return is not an incentive to take a broader commitment unless the male wants more.
When he says I feel like I love you when we are close like this (implying not at other times)--that is not marital love. That attitude is the one that infected so many of us to the point at which we are here--and I would really hate to see Jennifer here with two kids at home! And for the millionth time, this does not mean that S is incapable of taking the next step, it just means that all available evidence as presented here suggests his mind is not there yet. That may be why Jen's T was hesitant about their getting back together so quickly.
Look, I'm no expert and have made plenty of mistakes since I've been on this board. My view is one of many that can be accepted or rejected. I'm very happy for those who can engage in loving and tender R's who are not married and would never suggest that many of these couples will enjoy happier R's than married ones.
My hope in being on this board is to get enough insght into having the same R with my wife. I'm also learning about what to expecxt in the legal process if that is not in the stars. I try to DB and look inward, although I struggle with balancing tenderness against my W's hiring of an attorney with the aim of ending the M, removing me from our house, separating me from our children, and making me pay for the privilege. One wants to be as open as possible with their W, but doesn't want to read about their feelings in D complaint. Indeed, God bless those of you in non-M Rs that don't have to deal with this dynamic.
Let me close with saying H2H, I think you're special and deserve the best life can offer you. I hope you get it!
Thanks Merrick - I really don't want to go on in Jennifer's thread about our differences. So, I'll be as quick as I can hear and then prefer to drop it because I don't find this discussion getting me any closer to any of my personal or relationship goals.
Quote: And I'm sorry if many people feel differently, but in the view of many people here, the difference between a marital relationship and an exclusive non-marital one is the difference between the Catskills and Everest.
This is where I propose to agree to disagree. For me (and I speak for myself only) an exclusive non-marital relationship is my Everest. So the constant pointing out that it isn't a Marriage becomes tiresome and really a non-issue, again for ME. I can fully understand how you see a difference and respect that difference for YOU entirely. What I have issue with is your disregard for my perspective that it IS the same thing for me. You often make a point of saying it's "less than" ... and I finally just got tired of hearing it. I am NOT at all against marriage for me or anyone else. It is just that it is not the 'end goal' for me. It is not something bigger & better and thus more valuable in my eyes.
Quote: He is just not ready and the potential for a real tragedy is in the making if they force themselves ahead without the absolute commitment to do whatever it takes to get there.
This is truly for them to decide. If I were to express my humble opinion, I'd say that neither Jennifer or S. seems quite ready yet. Which leads me to ask: So what? Why must they need to know that with the absolute certainty you imply JUST RIGHT NOW? Is it not simply okay to live today, navigating these difficult issues together on the path towards some sort of decision? Why all the current pressure on S. to be the perfect poet, the man with all the answers, the one with absolutely no doubt? Do you think he is to currently express this level of commitment when he in all honesty senses the many doubts that Jennifer expresses? Could he not question whether he thinks he can in the end really please her? And hell, all the 'commitment' in the world does not guarantee a very happy & successful marriage.
I wholeheartedly agree that jumping into a marriage without the certainty you talk about seems foolish. I wouldn't recommend it. But RIGHT NOW, I don't see anyone running to the altar. I think it's been pretty amazing that they do work at the hard stuff together, sure with some glitches, but together. I think the pressure of expecting your partner to have all the commitment when you yourself have doubts is pointless. It's a process, a journey, and they seem to be pretty good at connecting and reconnecting in their happy dairy farm.
'Nuff said. For the record, I am neither offended nor angry, nor thought I was being tough on you as Ellie suggested. Only trying to express that the path to happiness can take as many forms as there are people here on the BB. And that no one end goal is better or harder or "right" for all. Jennifer has said she wants marriage, and so there are indeed many things for her to consider. IMHO, let's not put the cart before the ox, and just take one day at a time, working on those inner questions, until a clear and committed answer will appear.
Hmmm...I have to say that I found the transcript of the weekend exchange quite positive AND full of information from SO about "what works" and "what doesn't" for him.
Quote: We started really getting heated in our discussion, and S. pointed out that it showed how little trust and understanding we had for each other, that I was immediately assuming bad intentions [an oldie but a goodie] and how he was immediately getting defensive and hostile.
So, this is a great insight from him, no? Seems like he's pretty clear on wanting more "positive ASSumptions" from you -- the benefit of the doubt, etc? This was very much an issue for me and H for a long time...he would say to me "why do you want to be married to someone who you ASSume negative things about all the time?" Have to say that he was onto something.
It's bigtime important for my h to feel "trusted" to do the right thing and that includes the tacit "doing the right thing". Sounds like SO may share that?
Quote: So I suggested we break and not talk to each other for 15 minutes, and he agreed and we both did calming things – I picked up my book and he turned on his music while he straightened his room a bit. About 25 minutes later he made his way back into the living room, sat down, and started doing something when I started a conversation about the movies (at the noir festival) I’d seen that day (alone, not with MF). We immediately got into a spirited discussion about the films, and were having a great time. After about 30 minutes I said I’d like to go to bed (NOT continuing the conv we’d started fighting about, which was a 180 for me). He was very affectionate and close in bed, and asked the tried-and-true “What are you thinking?”
GREAT job on deescalating the sitch! WOW! Awesome 180 too!
Quote: Well, he wasn’t expecting to hear what I said, which was, “I was wondering if you loved me, and I’m trying to figure out how to ask you.” Well, what I heard/interpreted (which has since been modified) was [BIG LONG pause, then hesitantly] “I do love you.”
JinB: Why the long pause? S.: [BIG LONG pause] Well, I do love you, like when I feel close, like I do right now. JinB: Are you saying that sometimes you’re not sure? S.: [BIG LONG pause] Sometimes, like when we’re fighting, I don’t know. But when we’re close, like after we have fun together, or like now when we talked about the movies, and I’m feeling really close to you, I do love you.
OK...I guess I won't whack you TOO hard for you asking for reassurance in that way. Haven't you had this conversation with SO before? I swear I've read something similar on your thread in the past...with a similar (loaded, unsatisfactory, too open to interpretation, etc) response. My h runs screaming from the hills during this kind of "no answer could possibly be good enough" interaction...I'm surprised SO reacted as "well" as he did.
AND...his reaction was loaded with info...I feel GOOD and LOVING when we spend GOOD and POSITIVE time together. I DO NOT feel GOOD AND LOVING when we are FIGHTING. (so, either there's something about fighting in general OR the manner in which you fight that is NOT successful generating loving feelings within him.)
Quote: Here I can’t remember what was said, if anything, but after a while I said “S., I can’t fight for maybe. I won’t. It’s what I was doing before [before we split up], and I can’t do that to myself again. I won’t do it.”
Did he say maybe? I thought he said something different than that...sometimes isn't maybe to me...and what he seemed to tell you gives you a roadmap for increasing sometimes to "more", right?
Quote: Things brightened considerably after that, and we had a great time, opened a bottle of wine, and ate stretched across the bed having a nice, fun, light conv., laughing at some music that was on, and generally laughing and making jokes. The pizza was delicious, and he kept saying so and validating my great idea and how fun it was. Then…
I pulled out the Scrabble game I’d smuggled in, and we played for FOUR hours. It was so much fun, and although I beat him, he had a great time fighting. When we were done and it was time to go to bed, he was all over me, hugging, kissing, smiling, etc. [Note to self: HELLO?! QT is a serious LL for him, even if I keep insisting that WOA is his primary!) He couldn’t stop talking about how fun it was, and when was the rematch?
GOOD STUFF! Sounds like you exactly captured what he articulated the night before!
Quote: When we got into bed, I was feeling weird about the conv we’d had the night before, and do I just act as if, or do I bring it up… I was feeling physically protective of myself, and I finally said very gently, “I’m feeling a little self-protective tonight,” and he said “I can feel that,” and I said “The conversation we had last night is still very much on my mind,” and he said “That’s understandable,” and we lay there for a while, him holding me the whole time, and he kissed me and said “I love you, Jennifer,” and I squeezed him, and lay there not knowing what to say, because how do you take that after what he said? On again off again? So I said, very gently, “I don’t know how to take that, after what you said last night.” He said he’d felt put on the spot when I asked him if he loved me, and was trying to be really careful about what he said, as the subject is so sensitive. Okaaaaay, isn’t that a little weird? I mean, if he loves me he loves me and what’s so sensitive about saying “Yes, I love you,” and leaving it at that? But I didn’t say any of that, just decided to let it go and see what happened over the next few days.
Hmmm...ok...do YOU leave it "at that"? It seems like you don't so why are we expecting him to? I think he was pretty dead on and honest with his response to you...he felt on the spot, walking through some tricky stuff, and he was trying to be really clear (but sensitive) about how he feels without getting "trapped". What do you think would happen if you stopped querying him on his feelings for you and let him take the lead on that?
Quote: So, we spent the next 12 hours ML and then he asked me to stay the afternoon (after he got out of bed around 1 to make me blueberry pancakes) to help work on the fence in his backyard, which is a project we’ve been cutting wood in Vermont for. He flirted nonstop with me, calling me his “apprentice,” and it was really nice. He was very affectionate afterward, too, and thanked me several times for helping and saying it was fun to work outside together (something that we love in Vermont).
What a great afternoon! What if each one of the above positives spelled out "ILY" to you instead of the onthespot questions?
Just my two cents, Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
You've had lots of great advice here, Jennifer, that I won't try to replicate. Other than--you've got some great positives here to build on, and some great messages from S about what works and doesn't. So set a time limit and work consciously to replicate the good stuff, and see what happens.
Is there any resolution to the Christmas plans question?
Oh, boy! Lots of good stuff on my thread. Thanks, guys, for all the input. I won’t respond now – too much to absorb – but I do have some updating.
Yesterday I found out that my book proofs weren’t coming in until today, and so I didn’t have to go into the office at all yest. I decided to go to the movies, and called S. last-minute to see if he wanted to join. MF, as a writer and gadabout, is always free and had already signed the dance card, and when I called S. to see if he could join, I got a somewhat annoyed reaction. He couldn’t go, and then called it (again) “feeling weird” about my “sudden” interest in film noir, but I call it jealousy.
Anyway, when I returned home after 2 movies and a yoga class, I went to S’s and he was distant. I Acted As If, and he talked a little about big problems with one of his tenants, then said he felt really bad about this movie thing. We proceeded then to talk for three hours about it, which included these points:
1. S. feels I don’t understand his connection to this particular theater and film noir in general, and by going to 8 movies in 5 days without him and not making more of an effort to include him, I was showing a real lack of sensitivity. I validated, but then argued the obvious things, such as he has had to work every night, and that I called and asked him to join each time, and where was he being proactive about going, if it’s so darned important. Then, like a bolt of dolt, I realized I’d be hoppin’ mad if he’d done the same thing (like suddenly start going to a yoga class every day with a single FF), and so I managed to choke out a concession.
2. S. feels I am getting closer to this MF and that since S. and I are having problems in our R, it feels threatening to him. To my surprise (HE’S NOT DEAF EITHER, H2H!), he quoted back something I’d read aloud to him by Shirley Glass, about how women try to talk about their issues, and when men continue to ignore them, women eventually get fed up and give up, and when a woman gives up, it’s usually the end. He said he felt I was doing that, that I had indicated recently that I was reaching the end of my rope, that my frustration was becoming more than I cared to live with, and he was worried I was putting my energy into developing my R with MF.
Hmmmm, well! I validated his feelings and actually managed not to say much, listening to him explain how he felt. I kept quiet, not really knowing how to deal with the information and not wanting to react. I think it’s pretty OK to let him be a little jealous, though. It’s SO rare that I give him ANY reason to think I might be thinking outside the R. I did talk some about transparency, because he cited unfairness - his friendships with women and how I am constantly scrutinizing them. I said (gently, nonthreateningly, and without malice) that it had only been four months since I haven’t shared him with someone else, and that his ability to be with ONE person has been a question for me, and that a few of these FFs he had had “relations” with in the past, and that I have always been very transparent about my Rs with my friends, and made every effort to include him, and in contrast he has balked at including me, not ever introduced me to at least one of his close friends, and barely introduced me to the others. I talked about how in a R there is a need to include other people, to grow in different ways and learn things about each other we can’t learn just be being in a vacuum together all the time.
3. We talked a lot about the rhythm of our R and how he feels we don’t know important things about each other. He was talking mainly about this hurt he felt about not being included in the film festival, and finally I got him to see that I was fully aware how important it was to him, and I didn’t try to go when he couldn’t go out of spite.
One disjointed comment he made – He said something about my comment that I “couldn’t fight for maybe” and he completely understood that, but that I, too, showed doubt all the time, and how was he to know my own commitment when I was talking about “walking away” (his words)? Which, as H2H pointed out above, is a big problem for both of us. We’re both waiting for the hourly temp check before we stick more than our big toe in the water.
I finally ended the conv. (a 180), trying to be responsible and get us to bed before the cock started crowing (it was 3 before we crawled in).
And this a.m. he wrote me an e-mail from work saying Hope you're not too tired; I'm glad we talked last night. I'm doing ok, but it is busy, will let you know as soon as possible if I will be able to go to movies tonight. Which is akin to him making a big overture, because usually I can’t even get him to respond to my e-mails when he is at work.
So, difficult but positive. I saw some of S’s fears more clearly last night, which was VERY eye-opening as to his state of mind. I do believe, as you say Merrick, that he is ABLE to take it to the next level, but he’s not ready. In his case, though, I think the not ready is fear of rejection. This fear also keeps him from being able to express his insecurities. I would LOVE for him to get some T, or us to get some T together, but I will not bring it up, at least not now. Have I mentioned here that S’s last serious girlfriend he asked to marry him, and she said No?
Quote: Have I mentioned here that S’s last serious girlfriend he asked to marry him, and she said No?
Gotta run, but that's a MAJOR, MAJOR revelation touching hsi very soul and, especially if it took him a long time to recover. It makes me think again and sheds a little light on why I think he seems capable, but is just not "there" yet--regardless of how much more timeyou guys would need in any event before making any decisions. At the same time, I'm also curious as to why he thinks things didn't work out and last serious GF could not accept. Has he built more wall or was a bit more introspective.
Jen, this may sound crazy based on my posts, but I'm a bit jealous of you in that he at leats seems to want to make an effort--I'm just so tired of my sitch and wish I had a meaningful end (or beginning) in sight. Take care.
Seeing that I have some time sans NG hovering around, I'll venture some thoughts. 
I discovered pride was an optional luxury for me - and since then, life has been MUCH more rewarding. It may not be as simple a choice for everyone, but I guess understanding the underlying dynamics is the important thing. 
Slowly 
and then he asked me to stay the afternoon (after he got out of bed around 1 to make me blueberry pancakes) to help work on the fence in his backyard, which is a project we’ve been cutting wood in Vermont for. He flirted nonstop with me, calling me his “apprentice,” and it was really nice. He was very affectionate afterward, too, and thanked me several times for helping and saying it was fun to work outside together (something that we love in Vermont).