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Underdog

I have been reading your thread, looking at the problems you had with your H. For a while I decided to impliment some of the things that other people have had success with. It's like, read, try things, see what results I get, what works, what does not work, then post here. I did not want to be a whiner, so I felt reluctant to post for a while.

Many of the things you said your H did or did not do that left you feeling ignored, disrespected, and not being validated, I plead guilty to having been involved in a similar manner. W does them too.

I also have been reading Sage's post. Wow, detail, detail, and more detail. Compared to Sage, I am a simple person. I only see the detail of my life after reading about it in post's like Sage's.

One of my frustrations with W' zoo WAS getting better. Three old cats died recently. Sorry to see them in a disabled state just before their death, but glad to get rid of the "accidents" (according to W's way of thinking) they had on the carpet. One dog had to go because of niping the grand daughter. Very very good adult's dog, not so good with 2yr old's pulling hair.

Anyway, a kitten shows up on our deck. W has to rescue it and make sure it is cared for, then she will see whose cat it is. Well, you guesed it, she is attached to the cat. She is not looking for the owner. Even the cat chasing dog likes the cat and they are starting to be buddies. I told W I did not want another cat urinating on things but it loooks like the cat is staying. I am going to ask some of the neighbors if they know who ownes the cat. If I find the previous owner I will take the cat to them. (count=3 cats, 3 dogs, 3 birds, and no fish, down from 13 pets)

I am validating W comments more without feelingI have to act on what she says. She used to say "I wish xxxxx and I thought she was hinting that I should do xxxxx to help her reach her goal.. Now I try to listen and try to not think about helping her reach that goal.

I am still disapointed W will not read any books so we can talk about concepts presented in the book, but hay, it is in the book to not expect spouse to do anything. I have learned to detach more. What W does or does not do affects me less. Trying to get a life, also trying to do more with W. If W says no to activities, thats OK too.

I remember your H and the phone calls you wanted from him when he was out of town. He saw it as you being controling, you saw it as being concerned. I have a similar situation. W tells me when to go to bed which I used to see as controling, especially her tone when she says "GET TO BED." Now I see it as her way of caring about me, but not saying it tactfully.

OOP"s its 2AM again. GGTB (gota go to bed). Maybe next week I can read Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus.

OG Lou Kind of difficult to write exactly what I am thinking. I often see other posters write exactly what I feel.

Lou,

I wonder if she doesn't really know that you are a real gem? Sorry, but your thoughts about the zoo made me smile. I have a couple family members who fall into that category, and they are just really nurturing people. I have a cat myself, but she's just one...

I hope you see the value in being what you called "a simple person". I will tell you honestly that I have a few friends who would define themselves this way, and I find them so easy to be with. They really want little out of life and are happy with what they have.

I struggle to keep things simpler than they are. With a bunch of issues that arrived on my door step with my D7, it's often impossible, but I try.

I think my dad could have written your post about controlling vs. caring in the "GET TO BED" story. I swear that this was a big issue in their house for the exact reason as well.

Now that I'm a mom and have been someone's spouse for awhile, I see the control in it but with the underlying reason that you so astutely observed.

My mom used to go on and on about how she was sick and tired of hearing my dad complain about his back in the morning and for commenting that he didn't sleep well. Uh, she kept at the nagging, and he kept sleeping on the couch.

Yet, she would tell me on the phone (just between us girls, you know) that she just missed having my dad next to her in bed, even though he snored like the dickens. And she also worried about his poor sleeping habits and the fact that he was sleeping in a recliner instead of in a bed.

How much easier would it have been if she had just told him that?

Then there was my dad, who was steeped in resentment for the fact that she always defended my brother when my dad laid down the line on boundaries (they were both very distraught over my brother's poor choices and drug problems. Since they allowed him to live with them, against my dad's will, he got angry but didn't address it).

He told me on the phone that he was too angry to sleep with my mom.

One day they decided to resolve it--how, I don't know, because I never wanted to be sucked into their marriage.

Lou, it just reminds me of a saying I used to keep taped to my PC monitor: "Nothing is ever what it seems".

I think the best gift I can give anyone is to assume that they are not trying to control me. They just care, and if they aren't as studied on how this is a mask for covering big fears, we can understand that too, can't we?

So:

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I am validating W comments more without feelingI have to act on what she says. She used to say "I wish xxxxx and I thought she was hinting that I should do xxxxx to help her reach her goal.. Now I try to listen and try to not think about helping her reach that goal.

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Lou, this is absolutely perfect! That's exactly what a friend does, and you are being a friend.

I bet you're one terrific grandfather too. There is nothing more heart warming than a man who is willing to go to the extent to understand that you are doing. I think you are incredibly awesome!

But then again, I guess I'm a little partial to men who hail from Big Sky Country. (Yes, Mr. W. has a big Chevy pickup with the requisite mudflaps.) He's making progress too, so don't write him off as a complete loss. It's been hard to watch, but I have to just sit and validate. He's slowly getting there.

Big hugs, Lou.

Betsey

Underdog wrote, << He's making progress too, so don't write him off as a complete loss. It's been hard to watch, but I have to just sit and validate. He's slowly getting there. >>

Where is there? I guess I am like most kids, they want their parents together AND happy. Sorry If I have you two setting a date to re-up (army term for re-enlisting).

<< They just care, and if they aren't as studied on how this is a mask for covering big fears, we can understand that too, can't we? >>

I agree with the mask to cover things up. I also observe people talking and see 2 people talking about the same thing, but not answering the other persons question or commenting about a similar element of the conversation.

For instance, both are discussing why the mushroom soup taste so good. One is talking about the soup base, the other is talking about the mushrooms and has no interest in the soup base.

<< I hope you see the value in being what you called "a simple person"........and are happy with what they have. >>

By simple person, I was refering to my ability to be flexable in various situations.
Rigid or Complicated man or woman odrering a salad: Lettuce has to be a certain type, same with tomatoes, sliced not quarted, a certain salad dressing, you get the picture.
Easy going, Simple or Common woman or man ordering a salad: Lettuce-any kind, no sand please, not too bitter. Tomatoes, if you have them. Salad dressing, French, 1,000 island, any kind of cheese, Ranch, almost anything except very vinegary types.

Wanting things to be a certain way that causes another person to work extra hard or long seems pointless. There are a lot of good things in life tht require work, but why get fanatical.

I did some counseling with out my W. I was lamenting about feeling under privileged. The C said the Coke I drank from a can was the same Coke the doctors drink on their boats on the lake. The gasoline that powers the Doc's cars is the same that goes in your car. I started to realize money does have its advantages, but I enjoy so many things the supposed rich enjoy.

<< I struggle to keep things simpler than they are. With a bunch of issues that arrived on my door step with my D7, it's often impossible, but I try. >>

I saw some of what you are talking about when I was in college in 1987 to 1990. The college had a hands-on learning disabled program on campus. Many LD and HC parents had very little social life when compared to parents with regular kids.

OG Lou The night owl again.

Hiya Night Owl Lou!

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For instance, both are discussing why the mushroom soup taste so good. One is talking about the soup base, the other is talking about the mushrooms and has no interest in the soup base.

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What a great word picture and accurate to boot! And a classic example of neither person being "right" because they are both right for each person.

Getting there? Well, he's slowly reconnecting with people who were once important to him. For the longest time, he chose to decline their friendship and opted for hanging out with some juvenile behaving 40ish men. He still does, but he's sharing more and more stuff about them in a vein that is less than complimentary. D10 and I get a real kick out of the stories.

He's laughing at himself again too--always a good sign for someone who doesn't really take life terribly seriously. It's nice seeing that guy back again. The other one was really boring and not very fun.

No re-upping here. Just hanging out and making sure I'm meeting my own needs and taking care of the girls. We seem to do okay in that department... so I'll keep on keeping on.

And it sounds like you're doing the same in your neck of the woods. Hope life is just smooth and even keeled for you these days.

Betsey, who periodically enjoys slacker moments at work and the fantasy of playing hooky on a really nice day here in Denver

Communication Mismatch: Why do some people miss communicate so much?

An example. W and I watching a program about tribal customs on a Pacific Island. When a love one dies, the living person cuts off part of his own finger. Example, If my W died I would cut off part of my little finger.

My W was watching and asked me what do they do with the cut off part of the finger? She was sure the dead persons finger was cut off and the living relatives saved the dead persons finger.

I tried to explain what really happend and W got it on my 4th attempt to explain the finger cutting was done by the living on the living person.

The main point of my post is not to explain tribal customs, but vent my frustrations with having to explain some things so many times when talking with my W. Do people in a R grow so far apart that each speaks a different type of English that the other gets a completly different meaning, or is it the resentment or lack of caring that takes over?

Here is a typical example of two people talking about the same event but questions are not answered, and it seems two subjects being discussed.
W to H. the printer does not work.
Me. does not turn on, does not feed paper, no ink comes out of the print head, what part does not work?
W. It's broke.
Me. what does it do, what were ou trying to do?
W. You know that birthday party where uncle X dropped the cake and aunt B kind of put the cake back together, I was trying to print those pictures and I could not get the printer to work.
W. I can't get the printer to work.
Me. does it turn on.
W. I guess it does.
(frustration sets in, lots of talk so far but no steps taken to solve the problem)
Me. How about showing me what you are doing so I can see what does or does not happen.

I got information about the birthday I did not want but no information about what print functions took place and where the print process diveated from normal. I used the printer event just to demonstrate how R and other talks go. I can handel the real printer situations but have trouble when it is a real R issue.

Any Ideas out there? Sometimes I feel I have to define the word "IS" when I talk with W.

OG Lou, no energy left after explaining what "IS" means. I get crabby and would rather be pleasant and productive.

HMMMM. I'm not sure about the finger conversation, but I work with people all day long who can't (and I mean they just can't) describe a computer problem in any kind of meaningful way.

I doesn't work. That's all they see or know about it. If they push the button, the desired result doesn't happen. I work in a public library with folks of all levels of computer expertise, but mostly not too much. My standard response is, "Let's go try it so I can see your technique." It is a cheeseless tunnel to try to get them to explain it in a meaningful way. They just can't.

With my husband, who gets frustrated with the computer big time and frequently, I don't offer to help anymore unless he asks directly. I used to offer to help, and then when the problem was solved immediately, instead of being appreciative, he would be mad. Now, I let him grumble at the computer, yell sometimes, and take an hour to do what I could have done in 6 minutes. If he wants my help he has to ask for it in no uncertain terms.

Communication difficulties? You bet. And it's a whole different way of seeing and understanding the world around us, too. Sigh. Sometimes I whine to myself, "Its too much work to talk to them..." Then I remember that is why they pay me the medium bucks.

Ellen -- Still Growing

Lou -
Some thoughts:
1) Has your W always been like this? If so, your recent irritation over this is probably just seeping out from other areas of irritation. (You didn't tell us you were married to Jessica Simpson ) I must say, sounds like a real Mars/Venus thing to me. You are being very rational and "fix-it" logical; she doesn't know (and doesn't want to know)what's wrong with it, just wants to hand it over to you.

2) If this is new behavior on her part, I would bet on it being either A) clinical depression (affects memory and brain function, would explain some of the compulsive shopping) or B)early dementia (is she making mistakes and errors in other ways? History of Alzheimer's in the family?)

Ellie

Hi Lou!

Happy Thanksgiving!

I'm going to put a different spin on that conversation about the printer... because I used to be in the customer service business. I still wear that hat occasionally with clients who feel they need a little TLC in escalating to me.

I'm going out on a limb and will say that I think many escalations are due to the fact that one person in a party of 2 communicating does not label things well. It would be unthinkable if you were that person, and were the person who needed help and the person who handled your call became angry with you for being an inadequate communicator.

So, when I train someone to do this job, it's to focus on how they can assist the person in being more explicit. Sorry to hear that this person is your W, because it is definitely frustrating and requires a heck of a lot of thought and energy to muddle through a conversation.

(I'm in an electronic industry and our inadequate labelers just call and say, "My system is broken." We have to play 20 questions to get them to define what broken is, because their definition of broken is not ours.

See Ellie's response on why her inability to think clearly might be caused... I think she is much more qualified to answer those issues since she's an MD.

I'll highlight the conversation from this type of perspective. Yours will be in blue.

W to H. the printer does not work.

Lou: The printer doesn't work? Would you like me to take a look at it? Note: *This is a yes/no answer. They must answer it. Let's assume she says yes, because she broached the topic with you and not vice versa. (If she says no, feel free to go about your Lou business!)

Lou: What part does not work?

W. It's broke. Feel free to bang your head against the wall. This comment is frustrating!

Lou: What were you attempting to do? Can you tell me the story so I can get a feel for the problem?

W. You know that birthday party where uncle X dropped the cake and aunt B kind of put the cake back together, I was trying to print those pictures and I could not get the printer to work.

Lou: Would you mind just showing me what you're doing and walk me through it?

Again, yes or no question. If she says yes, you get some visual feedback. If she says no, you're probably better off anyway!

Lou: Thanks for your help. I'll take a look at it and let you know what I find.

She just lacks the ability to think through a sequence of events and explain them to you in terms that will help you identify the real cause of the printer malfunction.

Now, knowing this, can you see something that I see?

You *know* she doesn't give you straight answers to explicit questions, so why expect them? This is one great case I can see for leading a witness, Lou. You want to *draw* them into helping you communicate with them.

When you first start this exercise, try to employ questions that help YOU navigate by asking yes/no questions. Then as you gradually progress beyond them, feed the answers back to her and ask her if you understand her reply? Again, yes or no feedback.

Does any of this make sense, my friend?

Stay well and be good. I'll be checking the BB from time to time from my parents' house.

Hugs to you, Lou!

Betsey

KML wrote << Has your W always been like this? >>
Yes, getting worse the more she works at her liberal place of employment where other employees are in credit counseling because they get what they want.

Example, car will not start.
W. Car will not start, I guess I will have to get a new battery.
H. Do the instrument lights (oil, check engine) come on if you turn the key.
W. I do not remember, or I never looked.
H. When you turned the key did any sound come from the enging compartment?
W. Why do you always get me junk to drive.
H. The car is a usually reliable model. Just because it will not start does not mean the WHOLE car is junk. Batteries, starters, or what ever it is , things wear out.

Any way, I feel like the parent in situations like this and other situations.

W also tells me to buy xyz at store A because it is on sale. I go to store A, cant find xyz on sale, call home, W reads the newspaper and says, "O" it's on sale at store B.


<< New....A) clinical depression (affects memory and brain function, would explain some of the compulsive shopping >>
Not new. Yes! W doubled her dose of Prozac and is doing better getting things straight and more logical. We still talk on two different levels.

No Alzheimer's, aunts / uncles all in their 90. Can tell you where they worked since they were 16, where they lived since they were 3 or 4.

I was wondering how much the disconnect might be due to her verses my communication style and how much is due to resentment. Most importantly how to over come some of the differences.

We event went to a couples communication clinic. It was one of those "I heard you say xyz and that tells me you feel, want or etc, is that correct? It's called mirrowing ( my version of echoing) what the other person said. It helped some. Also wears a person out repeating and validation what each said or felt. Very slow process and little real ground covered at times.

OG Lou, making some gains. Thanks for replying KML.

stillgrowing, I used the printer story to convey a simple to explain example of how we miss communicat at the Lou house. I can actually get through the mechanical stuff with asking questions that require a yes or a no. When I do something like this for R issues I have to ask so many questions because I do not seem to ask the most important ones.

Also W inputs too many side issues and has a difficult time sticking to ONE subject. To me, I like solving one problem at a time. To her they are all related, which they are, but little repairs seem easier to handle.

I am learning to not jump in to solve W's problems as much. I wait until she asks for help. Instead of solving the problem for her I try to have her repeat what I do to arrive at a solution. I think it seems like too much work for her or she does not see the logic behind my process. I uess I am screwed up, watching too many Discovery Channel sciene programs on how things work or were built.

W knows I can find a solution in say 3 minuets where it would take her an hour and she would still not know how she got something to work. She would chalk it up to luck. I guess W thinks, if H can do it in 3 minuets, why should I(she) work at it for an hour maybe get if working, maybe not working.

W retired early because the hospital was implimenting a computerised medical supply dispensing / treatment policy. You had to log on to a computer, select the codes that apply to client, enter codes for supplies, servives rendered. Said the computers hated her, were too complicated, made them crash everytime she entered a code, never got the page she wanted, and so on. Took the class 2 or 3 times, same results.

Sorry for all of the complaints about W. Just want you to see how different W sees things than I see things sometimes.

OG Lou, Believing more in Mars / Venus