FF wrote: ------------ So what do I do?? What went wrong? Should I just consider this normal 'fireworks'? I have tried my best to be here while all these backslides are happening, I've done my best to remain pleasant, make H's breakfast every morning, get his lunch, make him snacks at night, say goodbye to him in the morning... ------------
Of course it is fireworks, but do you remember the part about fixing your stuff as it comes up?
Right now, you have changed the dynamics of the relationship. You have introduced energy into an otherwise steady-state system. That means the system is going to change by seeking out a new balance. This is all basic common sense, and completely to be expected.
Back to respect for a minute. He is not acting out of respect by blaming you for all of his pain, ignorance, and lack of responsibility. It is also not his fault for yours. One of the easier aspects of respect to forget is 'personal responsibility'. HE is responsible for his actions, you for yours.
For a while, you might have to be a shining example of 'doing it right' for your husband. I know you are about out of energy, but you are the one here, so you get to go first.
You should be encouraged, even in the midst of the turmoil. Change is afoot! I am already beginning to like your husband a bit. I think he has some serious potential to be genuine 'good guy'. He just needs to be called up to the task.
I know this is hard, but try your best not to take the process so personally. Get plenty of rest. Start exercising. It will help a lot. Try your best to smile and exude love toward your husband, even if it makes him mad :-) He won't be able to resist for long.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Well, I'M not liking your husband very much right now!
I think what everyone is saying is not that you have to "try harder" or "improve yourself" or "make everything better." Clearly, you have been working on yourself like crazy-- hmmm, maybe a poor (or apt) choice of word .
What I think people are saying is to stop being predictable. Throw him for a loop. Upset his apple cart. Not violently, but subtly and gently. Don't react in the expected, predictable way. To do this, you have to detach more. I know it sounds impossible, but you have to take some of his stuff less personally.
For example, when I ask my bf a question that he's uncomfortable answering, he starts what I've called the "fog machine." He spouts gobbledygook... words that have no point and no center. If you press him, he just spouts more fog. This used to make me SO mad. It even happened in the therapist's office. He spouted fog at her! She asked him to clarify, but he just went deeper into the fog. Now that I recognize that the fog machine is triggered by something in HIM that is a response to something outside (which may be my question, or the therapist's question, or whatever), when he does it, I just stand with detached amusement, and say to myself, here comes the fog. I no longer press for an answer at that point.
So when your H complains about the kitchen, you might consider coming up with a completely unexpected response, like hugging him and thanking him for caring so much about the beauty of your home. There are a lot of guys who don't even care what the house looks like, as long as they can find the refrigerator and the beer. I'm not saying you turn his rudeness and perfectionism into a virtue, or that you even like it, I'm saying, when he pushes your buttons, give him a response different from the one he's used to. When he puts in the nickel and pulls the handle, he's expecting m&m's-- give him feathers, or nails, or soup. Or you could say, yeah, the sight of this messy kitchen exhausts me, I'm going to take a nap. Or, whenever I start to think about cleaning the kitchen, I get inspired to play-- and go pick up the flute.
You two are locked into a script and SOMEONE has to break out. Ieally you two would work on it together, but if not, then just you.
Validating him is good, because he won't be expecting it.
We used to have a saying posted on the wall of an office where I worked:
If you always do what you've always done, You'll always get what you always got, So, if you want change, Do ANYTHING different.
I went back and reread your original thread back when you first joined the board. It does seem to me that things changed after you had kids. There appeared to be some anger and resentment on his part there. You said that for several years before you had the kids, you used to ML every day. I think you also said that you were the one who pushed for commitment. Did he just want to stay bf/gf indefinitely? I'm sure you've addressed this somewhere... but when did things really start to change? (Hope I'm not getting you mixed up with someone else again... )
Thanks to all of you. I think I've settled down a bit...thanks Nopkins and Lilli for giving me a sort of light at the end of the tunnel. I do think that there is a good guy in H - I wouldn't have hung in this long if there wasn't. Yeah, I was taking things a bit personally today. I did use a lot of energy today, still plan on practicing for a while, so I'll get a good night's sleep, and hopefully, should be able to seperate myself more tomorrow.
Lilli, you asked about the dynamics of our R in the beginning. Yes, I was the one who pushed for commitment. Our relationship started rather fast, and I was the one putting the brakes on in the beginning. We did ML very often in the early years. Things started slowing down when we moved in together, two years before we were married, but this was probably more just a result of being together more, though I found recently journal entries before we were married where I mention that we haven't ML in several months (but things were ok otherwise).
I'm not sure whether H would have just wanted to stay bf/gf, this is an issue with his family, and in general in Finland. It's not so unusual, for example, for couples to get engaged and not married. H's bro just married his partner last fall after 10yrs and 3 kids together, his cousin also took about 10yr before they got married. I wasn't doing that, and did push things along. I pushed for the engagement, then he surprised me by telling everyone we were getting married the next summer.
There was a real slow down after we got married, I remember H bringing computer mags to bed with him on our 'second' wedding night (we had a blessing ceremony/party in Finland after the 'real thing' in the States), and I remember being rather 'frustrated' around the time D8 was conceived. H seemed pretty freaked out by pg me, and I'm pretty sure now that part of the problem is the extra weight I have put on.
Enough for now. I'll get my second wind...and I can do 'unpredictable' . I'll keep you all up to date. I really appreciate all your support!!
FocusedFlutist I like the positive attitude your name change portrays.
In some of your posts you said the subject of nit picking came up. I have that in my M also.
W is a big time spender. She goes for all of the heavly advertised products she sees on TV and especially the shopping channel, QVC.
Today she comes home with popcorn maker #6. It is metal and has a stir crank in the handle. It has a butter melter in the lid. She made a batch of corn and asked me why it was kind of not fluffy and a little tough. I reminded her that microwave popcorn maker #3 was set up that way and did the same thing. Then I sinned. I asked her why she bought popcorn maker #6 because popcorn maker #3 was designed the same way and did the same thing.
Her reply was "pick, pick, pick, that is all you do." I said to W; "there are statements seeking more information, statements stating my preference, statements suggesting changes I would like to see, and statements of criticising. "In this case I was seeking information." Things got so poor R wise, we both heard things like information statements as criticisms.
On another post here on DB, someone had some insight about the other S's commitment state of mind or style, a book that might be of interest to you. I am looking for a used copy.
"Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend. "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders". Renters are angry and try to convince another person that they are right. Buyers only want to be in a marriage where it is mutually satisfying and are willing to give up a marriage when the other person isn't interested. The Freeloaders part I did not look up on the net.
I see a lot of things that work on paper or in theory but I have trouble making them work in our R. So far I have managed to differentiate and HOM. Making a little progress.
We do IC about 1 or 2X a month, she just wants a back rub, not really into IC. Got invited to SLEEP back in her bed since I did something about my snoring and implementing some of the things I read in the books listed on the BB.
W told me that dog #3 was used to sleeping next to her and I had to be considerat of dog #3 feelings about bring displaced. Nothing new to me, always felt I ranked somewhere between the last cat and gold fish anyway (12 pets).
Not complaining, just feeling a little down. Summing up what W thinks about the importance of pets. W="Pets love you unconditionally, people expect too much"
Just thought I'd drop in a update a little, even though nothing much has happened (outside of my brain).
Things are back to the usual quiet calm that they were a few weeks ago - as quiet and calm as a house full of kids can be. H worked late last night, then I had a translation I had promised to do for him, so there wasn't much interaction. I did send him one e-mail during the day, something I never do, mainly since I usually am not much in the house during the time he's at work!
Yesterday when I made a point of saying goodbye, he just ignored me, this morning, he was in a foul mood, so I sort of stayed out of his way. There have been a couple of times when he's tried to talk down to me, and I've stopped him.
It feels about where we were a year ago. Is there a difference? I make a point of keeping my mind on the kids and not dwelling on things, but I've been here before. What this seems to accomplish? a) makes me extremely h*rney, and b) allows me to be more away of all the thoughts swirling through my brain.
I know that that it's only been a couple of days since my crazy posts of this past weekend, and too early for a big change, but I still feel like I'm going in circles. It seems that if I am nice to H, then he seems content, and goes about doing his own thing. He does stop when I call him on 'stuff', but seems content that the pressure is off. If I were to be 'more friendly', the presure would be back on again, and he would start 'picking'. Right now the problem is that I'm very, very 'needy', and it really takes everything to keep from being short with the kids and H. Yes, exersize, practicing...but I don't know how long I can keep this up.
I'm not as wild on the outside as my emotions (and therfore my writing) may seem...there are only a few people who would even suspect that there is something 'wrong' in the flutey household.
Hve there been any signs of change? As I said, H will stop himself, except this morning when he was tired and stressed out (so I removed myself). There's been little chance for me to notice anything else, because when H is here, most of the time he's sleeping or at the computer, or reading the paper.
I tried to plan a family outing for the weekend, and H didn't make any comment. If things go as usual, I'll make the plans, and at the last minute, H will ask if I mind if he doesn't come along, since he has 'things to do'. And yes, he does 'things' or sleeps. But who knows, maybe this time will be different.
Ok, writing this is not helping my mood as much as I thought it might, so I'll spare you all listening to my whining, and stop for now.
What does your husband do at the computer since he spends so much time on it?
What does he do when you and the kids are out and he has 'things' to do?
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Quote: What does your husband do at the computer since he spends so much time on it?
He subscribes to a couple of lists, a couple are on organ, not sure about the rest, surfs, mainly cd stores and now he's been downloading music, news, I know he does download porn.
Quote: What does he do when you and the kids are out and he has 'things' to do?
Sleep, read, surf, or he's got some project going. He is the treasurer of an organ society, is on the board of an organ festival and the local orchestra's support league, he edits program books for a couple of music festivals throughout the year, writes cd texts for one for a friend of ours who's got a hot recording schedule right now, I could go on and on.
I suspect you're hinting that he may be having an on-line affair, and while of course that is possible, I find it rather unlikely. The only affair I think he has is with his computer, and organ. I think one of the things I fell in love with in him was his interest and knowledge in a lot of areas, I thought he was in love with life. Now I suspect it's his way of avoiding it.
As I sit here now (should be in bed, sleeping ) he's on his computer in the other room, checking out recordings, and he is having a conversation with me, sharing things he's finding.
I've got a bunch of ideas running through my head right now about me, but I think I'll wait to share them after I've gotten some sleep.
Actually, I did suspect an affair of sorts, but one that involves Rosy Palms.
The man has testosterone coursing through his veins. Even if he never masturbates, he is directing whatever sexual energy he has toward something. Maybe it is music, maybe it is both.
Maybe it is time to tell him that he is welcome to have sex with you instead of masturbating. Maybe you should tell him exactly that, in the afore couched terms, factual and straightforward.
I am also curious as to why he finds family activities unappealing. I am not buying the cultural difference excuse.
In another post, you talked about how needy you are feeling. I know it is hard, but I want to encourage you to continue to avoid that behavior.
Hang in there, FF, you are doing fine.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Quote: I am also curious as to why he finds family activities unappealing. I am not buying the cultural difference excuse.
Nope, I'm definately not giving it here for this. H apparently has always been a loner. His family has a summer cottage (like most finnish families), and he talks about how he hated having to go there every weekend. I've been told stories about how when he was 'forced' to go along berry picking (also another very finnish pasttime) he would take a folding chair and a book, and set up shop somewhere nearby to where everyone else was picking.
He won an award at school, his mom found out only when the teacher called to get permission for him to go on the trip to receive it.
Now, he doesn't like the stress of having to get the kids ready (he has never helped getting the kids dressed when we all go out. He used to say it was because we didn't have room in the hallway, but since we've moved, he can't use that as an excuse!) and he doesn't enjoy going to the zoo or wherever with them.
He's always loved to go to the grocery store and take one or two kids along, and he'll take the boys when he goes through the car wash, or to get the tires changed - used to take D8 as well, D6 wouldn't go with him. And his idea of a perfect family outing would be to take the kids and go shopping - which ends up being so stressful for me (getting better now as they're older, though the boys are at a very wild stage right now) that we very rarely do it.
If I go out, H will either take the kids to his parents (he'll stay too), or if it's only a short while, just kind of let them take care of themselves. Many Sat. mornings, I'll run out first thing to get the grocery shopping,so we'll have time to do other things (H agrees with this), and come back to find the kids still in their pj's, H in bed, and noone has eaten breakfast.
Whenever we do go out as a family, H stays out of the way 'till we're just about ready to go, then runs around complaining that we can't leave the house a mess, or finds someother problem, and starts yelling at the kids, who are already in their coats and waiting by the door, that we can't go until they go back and pick up or whatever.
It seems that every time we do all go out for something other than family parties, H is stressed out, starts 'picking' and there is some kind of fight, or at least a lot of tension between us.
So I started just planning everything myself, and giving him the option of joining us. I really figured after a couple of times, he would see we were having so much fun he'd want to join in. He will sometimes come after the fact if we've gone to the park to skate, to watch, and sometimes we all go out for short walks, but usually he just stays at home and enjoys the quiet.
I'm not avoiding the other part of your post, got to think about it a bit still.
. 
) 
H worked late last night, then I had a translation I had promised to do for him, so there wasn't much interaction. I did send him one e-mail during the day, something I never do, mainly since I usually am not much in the house during the time he's at work!