You go girl! I certainly wouldn't sign anything either, not without an explanation that is reasonable to you. I know you're dealing with a whole different culture and that really complicates your situation.
You may have already answered this question to someone else so forgive me if I'm making you repeat yourself but...what is the "typical" role of the wife in a Finnish marriage?
Sometimes, I think that my actions will be interpreted as selfish, and therefore I don't want to tell my W what I'm doing. Other times, I tell my W what I'm doing, and she either doesn't remember or she has tuned me out. I never know which way to go.
Most of the time, these "battles" will occur with something that is my responsibility. For instance, finances are MY job since Day 1 of the M. Now, 12 years later, I would be upset if my W refused to sign a form to set up a credit line or money transfer. Why? Because she has NEVER shown an interest in helping me manage the finances. Now that I have shown her a form, she wants to know what it's for and why we need it?? Grrrrrr. Red flag.
So, even though it's your car, maybe you've never seemed to care about it until now. H seems upset because you blindsided him with wanting to be involved this time. He's not wanting to let you do that because you've never wanted to do that before. You should find some way to talk about it, of course.
And all of this is just my guessing at your sitch. The hot tub sounds nice.
I love how he went on for "minutes" telling you that he didn't have time to explain it to you! What's up with that? How difficult can it be? "I found a cheaper place." "I found a more convenient place" "I found out that the storage place's owner's mother is a hamster and his father smells of elderberries."
Maybe he's invoking some ancient Finnish law that allows a man to divorce his wife if he can get her to give up her sled for the weekend, and get her to sign a document releasing title to her reindeer (or, in the modern version, tires). I'd suggest you consult an attorney who specializes in ancient Finnish law.
Hi all, sorry to leave you hanging, it's been rather crazy around here for a change!
I finally just now got out of H that he really didn't have a reason for moving the tires, just that they were in a different place than the car (which is in for service, he finally admitted)...and that since I didn't sign the paper, I can do what I want. So, I've been a bad girl again and he'll wipe his hands of everything.
I won't have much chance to escape this weekend anyway, we've got to go to cousin's b'day party tomorrow...hrs drive away Besides, I hate to dissapear and leave the kids, 'cause they're the ones that end up missing out.
H has sort of slid back into his usual 'hiding' mode. M&K, his sense of humor is very dry. Many of my friends also comment that it would be nice to see him smile once in a while. This isn't all that unusual for Finns, they do then to be the 'strong' silent type. If I don't start 'working' on things again, he'll just assume everything's fine and go on with his life. As long as I show him some attention, am reasonably pleasant, and feed him once in a while, he's ok.
The typical role of a Finnish wife: the women here pride themselves on their 'equality' - Finnish women were the second in the world (just after New Zealand) to get the right to vote. They're also very well educated - but they also do most of the housework. Traditionally, the woman takes care of the kids and home, and most pride themselves on working outside of the home as well. Younger men are taking more interest in kids and family, and it's not all that unusual to find 'stay at home dads' party because of financial necesity - it's sometimes easier for men to get time off right now, employers are trying to find all kinds of ways around the great maternity leaves.
Back to H...
I really was sensing a warming in him before my dad came. I still think it's a bit like a child that doesn't have his mother's full attention - he doesn't seem to want to share me with anyone. 'Course, he wants me to act the way he feels is right - not ask too many questions, or be unhappy, needy...
Quote: So, even though it's your car, maybe you've never seemed to care about it until now. H seems upset because you blindsided him with wanting to be involved this time. He's not wanting to let you do that because you've never wanted to do that before. You should find some way to talk about it, of course.
Chris, you might be right, but I haven't been completely passive in the past either. H just likes to do everything without telling me, so he won't have to explain. I just like to know what's going on - like I said, I usually don't have any reason not to agree. We have a garage door that's been broken for the past two years...and I know he's done something, or looked into doing something, but he won't tell me what, nor will he let me take matters into my own hands.
In the past, he'll ask me about the car, and when I ask 'are you bringing it in for service', he usually answers 'Yeah, anything you want to tell them?', so I was surprised at the silence, and the tantrum this time. I did during the convo ask him 'Is it because they're expensive? or inconvenient? so all he had to do was give a yes or no answer, and I would have been satisfied. After last week, I really didn't feel like giving in. I've got to stop this behavior some time, since it's not doing either of us any good.
I started to say in my last post that I don't want to apologize for my past behavior. I don't want that to sound like I have no part in this, but I've been feeling as though I need to be nice to H because I've been angry in the past, and now I see it as though I need to 'focus' my anger - use it to correct what is a bad sitch. I have a right to be angry at the way he treats me, but just blowing up is not going to help at all - I need to stop things right away.
It's kind of stressful, 'cause I feel like that's what I do all day - keep on my students so they don't fall into their bad habits...it's much easier to let them just fly ahead and try to correct the mistakes later, but it's much harder for them. Easier, and better for them, but much more difficult for me is to prevent the mistakes from happening in the first place, or at least correcting them as soon as they appear. It's much more work, but more satisfying in the end. I guess that's how I have to think about H...but damn it's hard work, and I still wonder when the satisfaction is going to start
I will point out that H was great with the kids tonight - great in talking to them, and reading bedtime stories to the boys.
I haven't seen the Northern Lights yet this year. I do sometimes get to see them on my ride home from work, though here in the 'city' they're not too colorful. Still amazing, though.
This is way too long, and not too coherant, so I'll stop for now.
I'm trying to figure this whole thing out. I realized I've been kind of ignoring H for the past couple of days, since I felt so lousy about how he acted when my dad was here, so I finall decidided I would talk to him about it. And now, here I am. Don't feel much like sleeping, though I'm exhausted.
M: 'I've felt pretty lousy about the way you acted and treated me last week when my Dad was here'
H'Well, you were the one who yelled at me in front of him'
M 'I got upset when you kept asking if I would make you breakfast when I was obviously busy - and then after I said no, continued to poke at me'.
H ' You started yelling that you would go out into the street and tell everyone about our problems'
M' I was frustrated. You pushed me out of the way when we were looking at pictures with my Dad, and slammed the door in our faces'
Then we got into a discussion about why this happened. H brought up stuff that happend 5, 10 yrs ago, and said that he kept asking about the breakfast 'cause he didn't understand I said no. We managed to agree that alot of this stuff is cultural - he gets upset because I act in a way very normal to Americans, but not to Finns.
Then he went on to explain about the door slamming, how he didn't understand I was staying home, how he felt embarrassed that he tried to work things out and nobody told him I was staying home. He felt that my Dad and I were laughing at him. I told him that it was only after he slammed the door that we had any kind of comment on him in that way - and it certainly wasn't laughing.
It seems that H still doesn't understand where I come from culturally, and it feels right now like he doesn't want to see, he just kind of shuts down. I did say that I felt it still didn't give him any reason to talk or act to me the way he did. He just kept repeating that he had felt embarassed, and that's why he did it.
I'm confused. I keep trying to get some handle on this, to try to figure out what I can do, and I feel that when I try to set boundaries, H somehow turns it around to me, when I try to communicate my feelings, we end up pointing fingers. I did say that I wanted to stop finding blame - and H made it sound as though he was acting the way he did because of how I acted in the past, and I told him that I was trying to stop this cycle. I don't want to hold grudges - I don't, if I get upset, I get upset, and then go on, but H keeps bringing the same things up over and over... Once again, H complained that I was just talking about the same stuff - and went on for about 5 mins about it. I was able to seperate and laugh to myself, not really at him, just at the situation. Sometimes I wonder if I'm doing any good at all, or if we're both just being P/A with each other. Every time I try to be straightforward, it feels like there's another turn in the road.
How long does this have to go on before H will realize how rediculous it is? I'm not sure I can take too much more of it. Especially if I don't have any kind of physical support - affection, if not sex!!! I'm a happy person - everyone who knows me comments on the energy and happy outlook on life I have, but I'm wearing thin.
Yeah, I know, I'm having a pity party for myself. But only here, so I can somehow come to terms and figure out how to go on from here.
On a happier note - I've lost 3 lbs in the past two weeks!!
We managed to agree that alot of this stuff is cultural - he gets upset because I act in a way very normal to Americans, but not to Finns.
You are certainly holding onto yourself, culturally anyway. You don't sound the slightest bit Finnish. That's probably a good thing.
Quote: H brought up stuff that happend 5, 10 yrs ago,
That kind of things drives me to distraction when my W does it, particularly when it is meant to wound.
I know an American flute player who just married a German and lives in Germany. I wonder of she is having your problems (although I doubt she would have married him in that case! )
Now that I've logged myself in (had to go look up the password and all.lol) to respond to someone else, I thought I'd throw 2 cents over here.
Since I'm still in "Newcomer's Mode" (My H was asking to separate and I've been DBing for 7 months now) I still have the "mantra" over there REALLY inbedded in me...which is...to validate their "complaints" like crazy. Which DOESN'T mean that you agree with them (it's odd at first, because it seems you ARE agreeing--but what you really are agreeing is that THEY feel the way the do--make sense?)
It really works--my H is kind of a grumpy guy, very moody, and would go on and on for LONG periods of time about all my "sins" (yeah, OK, there were some big ones!lol) and instead of my usual reponses (how could you feel that way/I didn't mean it that way/you're being ridiculous to feel like that/etc) I started validating. Low and behold, no more rants! He feels "heard" when I validate him.
And now he is less and less grumpy--in fact, he hasn't lost his temper once in the past 3 months or so. Moodiness seems to be getting better too.
I'm a pretty big believer in it. It's not being a doormat at all--I just agree that he felt a certain way--what's NOT to agree about? And really, can you control how they feel? He has some "odd" feelings at times (don't they all?) but, heck, they are his feelings.
So maybe when he is saying he felt embarassed you could say something like "You must have felt very embarassed, I can see that now". Repeat what he says to you.
And going back all those years? My H did that a LOT--making up for all the times I "didn't hear him" I guess. You'll have to do it less and less as they feel more "heard" and "understood".
Works good on my mother, too, who holds grudges forever.
Quote: Maybe he's invoking some ancient Finnish law that allows a man to divorce his wife if he can get her to give up her sled for the weekend, and get her to sign a document releasing title to her reindeer (or, in the modern version, tires). I'd suggest you consult an attorney who specializes in ancient Finnish law.
Hairy,
That may have to wait for a few days, seems most experts in Ancient Finnish law are up north studying raindeer entrails this week.
Laura,
Thanks for the advice. I did repeat back to H what he said, since he was worried that I didn't understand - but I like your suggestion, it's easy, short and to the point. I need to find ways to stay focused right now.
I was just thinking that for me, I need to think about differentiating as being like a mother being the strong wall against which a child throws their tantrum. I need to find ways of just being there when H is like this, without getting involved. I did do better last night that I would have a year ago, but not as well as I would have liked...
Quote: You are certainly holding onto yourself, culturally anyway. You don't sound the slightest bit Finnish. That's probably a good thing.
M&K,
Yes and no. Many of my collegues and friends consider me 'Finnish', or at least ask me if I feel more Am. or Fin., and they are surprised when I say I hope I'm still at least some Am. - since they point out how well I 'fit in'. In a way, I've gotten to a place where I'm able to almost seperate my 'Finnish' self from my 'American' core.
But I can't help wondering once in a while if my refusal to completely 'assimilate' isn't the sorce of some of my problems.
I was surprised to find out how much culture played a part in this last 'round' with H. I've been playing that down, I guess, since I've been discussing this here, and it's easy to 'slip back' into Am. mode with you all. And I just felt that in the end we are just Man and Woman, but I guess there are things I need to consider.
The 'old stuff' H brought up last night were situations where I had 'revealed' something to friends - telling stories about things that H+I had done together, which made H uncomfortable. To me, they were just stories, things that H has told, and in a way, my way of showing my admiration of certain traits of H, but he sees it as revealing. Finns, as I have said, are extremely private - I once lost a very close friend by revealing something: we were sitting in our dorm's common room, talking about her coming wedding. A second friend came in, and the bride asked her a question about a place they were considering for a honeymoon spot. When the friend asked why the bride was asking, I happily blurted out 'cause she's getting married!' which caused the bride to get up in a huff, and run off. It's only now, about 13 yrs later, that the bride will even speak to me a little, though we do run into each other once in a while.
So I'm dealing with a very private culture - think what H would do if he realized how much I'm revealing here. I'm sure this has something to do with his reluctance to attend C as well. Part of me really understands this feeling, but I also have trouble understanding where the line lies, so I do still get in trouble once in a while.
I keep thinking that I'm not sure if I want to become the person that H seems to need to keep him happy. He seems to need someone who takes care of the behind the scenes stuff, while making him feel he is control, and to stand quietly beside him, sort of agreeing like the devoted wife. I guess this is a pretty good description of a Finnish wife - but I'm a social person who likes to know what's going on around her, and I feel stiffled in this position. Not to mention that I know part of what attracted H to me was my outgoing social personality.
It's hard some times to figure out what part of this is cultural, and what part is obnoxious traits of H + I that we need to work on...
Besides, I hate to dissapear and leave the kids, 'cause they're the ones that end up missing out.