This started out as a reply to JJ on her thread, but it got so big and bad that I thought I'd move it over here. Thanks for your posts, JJ, they've been very insightful, as usual. I guess I've just had a bad week...I feel like I'm ready for battle, but like I'm waging war against a insurmountable enemy. Ok, I should probably put off the final assesment 'till next week when the house is empty of guests again, but then I'll be fending off comments about how I acted this week...
I understand that this has probably been a stressfull week for H - hey, I have his parents in my house every afternoon, I know what it's like. But he's made no attempts at even trying to be civil towards me. Last night he pushed me aside as my dad was showing some pictures he had taken - wouldn't let me stand next to him so we could look at them together. In front of my dad. Tonight, I came in and told everyone(including H)that I had changed my schedule so I had the day off tomorrow. Said it several times (since I was exhausted and very happy to have the day off). As everyone else is getting ready for bed, H comes out and tries to figure out what's going to happen tomorrow when Dad +co have to be driven to the hotel. After he went on for a while, I pointed out that I wasn't working, to which he got very upset 'I just wasted 10 mins trying to figure this whole thing out, you could have told me you weren't working!' and slammed the door to his office. Again, in front of my dad.
I started this week by trying to make some kind of connection with him, in our bed, very light and friendly, because I wanted to, I didn't like the tone he had been taking, and I was determined NOT to let it get in the way of my good mood. As I wrote, he called me silly, and repeated it again the next day when I got tired of him acting like a child.
I feel like everytime I get somewhere, H moves. JJ,you and H were having at least some kind of sex when you started this whole thing, so there was some kind of conversation going on...I just feel like I don't have much to grasp on, and even that is so slippery I can't get a good hold. If I lay on the bed naked, H would tell me to go to sleep. Phone sex? I'm pretty sure H would hang up before we got too far. If I really care about myself, why am I trying? The answer is for the kids. But I hear things coming out of their mouths that they hear from him and it gets me upset. I don't want them to learn that Mom can just take this cr*p from dad...but I'm not sure things would be better for them if I was on my own either.
This ain't about sex, it's about respect. Right now I'm beginning to feel that I respect myself too much to even bother trying to get sex from H. I know HP you've said that ML improved other areas of your R, and I want to believe that about us as well, but I just don't know. I don't feel like ML to the man who has slept in my bed this week.
I guess maybe I should just go to bed and get a good night's sleep and think about this all after my guests have gone. I hate that my dad has to go home knowing how H has been treating me all week.
It's tempting to ask yourself about the cause of your H's lack of respect and hostility towards you, but the fact is he might not even know himself. All you can do is demand to be treated with respect. You were embarrassed that he yelled at you in front of your father because you were embarassed to let your father see you treated with such disrespect. It was really chickensh*t and rude for your H to act this way in front of your father. Your father is probably a civilized person who tries to mind his own business, but it would have been nice if he went John Wayne on your H's *ss and pistol-whipped him while saying "In America we expect our daughters to be treated like ladies.". I think you should have said "You are acting like a two-year-old and embarrassing yourself in front of our guest." and left the room. There is no reason to allow your H to get away with this cr*p. I'm sure it would have reassured your father to see that you can handle yourself in your relationship. Believe me, I know this would be really tough to do. I don't know if I could do it under those circumstances either.
Whether or not you want to have sex with your H right now, doesn't need to interfere with your desire to be an actively sexual person. Remember the bar example from PM. If you let you H's cr*ppy behavior influence your sex drive, this is a form of emotional fusion. Of course he is going to behave in a manner that will lower your drive. He wants to lower your drive because he doesn't want to deal with the sexual difficulties in your relationship. You have to let him know that you have a sex drive that you are going to find a way to satisfy whether or not he wants to satisfy it and whether or not he acts like a jerk. You say you have lots of room for houseguests. Why don't you invite that old flame of yours to spend a week in Finland? If your H objects say "I need to spend some time with someone who is kind to me and finds me sexually desirable. For the sake of the children and the bond we share I wish that could be you, but since you indicate a complete lack of interest in my "silly" emotional and physical needs, I feel like I should invite Hank to Finland and consider having sex with him. Feel free to continue your preoccupation with internet porn during his visit if that is your preference.".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
FF, I'm going to gently and respectfully (I hope) bring the subject back to alcoholism. If he is an alcoholic... he is not going to respond in a "normal" way. If he's an alcoholic (and two going on three DWI's is a huge red flag), everything is going to be your fault, he will see no reason to change, he is running from tremendous pain that he is medicating with alcohol, rage, blame, and other ways of avoiding.
It seems to me that you're operating on the premise that if you're just nice enough and reasonable enough, he'll eventually come around. You're excusing his inexcusable behavior and hoping he'll see the light. If anything, it might be more effective to cease tolerating any bad behavior from him AT ALL. You don't have to be rude or ugly. Just state that you will not be spoken to in that way, or ignored, or have all the chores dumped on you, or whatever, and then leave the room or the house or the country.
In AA they have a saying that alcohol is devious, cunning, baffling, and powerful. If he's an alcoholic, you can't reason with him. You can't make him be nice by being nice to him. His thinking is skewed. Even when he's sober, his thinking is STILL skewed. You can't say something reasonable to him, have him go off by himself, think it over, then come back to you and say, "You know, what you said made a lot of sense. I think I'm going to do that from now on."
The best thing you can do is detach, detach, detach-- just like Schnarch says. Focus on yourself. Disentangle yourself from his whacked-out thinking. Stop being so nice to him. Don't start to be mean, just stop spending all of your energy making sure he's okay. Take care of YOU.
If you go to a C, maybe you can find one who specializes in addiction and co-dependency issues. That would help. And AlAnon is free-- that's one of the great things about it.
You have my sitch confused with someone else's (cinemanyph?). H might have one beer a month, very very rarely something more. That would be my last straw. His dad could probably be considered an alcoholic, or at least a heavy drinker who's very controlling.
JJ.
Actually, my 'John Wayne' of a dad did have almost that exact conversation with H this week And I haven't been quite as wimpy as I come across here. Last night with the door slam, there really wasn't any point in saying anything, that's what H was looking for, to bait me. I'm not playing that game any more.
I like your idea about inviting someone! I worry a little about this though - I'll explain. I think in Schnarch, the example of the bar scene was played out with a couple who had a pretty decent R, just a lousy sex life. The wife could be fairly confident that her H cared enough about her not to want her to go pick anyone up, so she could be confident enough to pull it off. Sort of like reverse psychology with kids when you know they're not going to accept the alternative. I'm not that sure with H. I can almost see him letting me go through with it, so he can hold it against me later. OK, I might be 'expecting' a reaction, but it fits with how things have gone so far - he pushes me to get me to explode so he can use it against me later.
I almost wonder if his thought process goes something like this - I'm no good, so why would anyone want to ML to me. W wants to ML - what kind of person is she that she would want to ML to me - I don't want to be with that kind of person. BUT - she is my wife, so I can stop her from ML to anyone else. And if she did, I'd finally be able to show her what a lousy person she is.
What's stopping me from having an affair right now? I don't have the guts to do it for just sex - and I wouldn't want to 'use' the other person, 'cause I'm not really prepared right now to break up the family. I'd end up being the one getting hurt, I'm afraid
So we're back to the conversation about a month ago - I need to go back and work on making myself financially 'independent'. If I had a solid base, an 'exit plan', then it would make my case more convincing - Look H, I've done this +this, and I am prepared to leave if things don't get better. That might make him take notice. Dad seems very eager to help - trying to figure out how I could get work in the states. Thing is, I'm very determined to stick to my present career...and truth is, with 4 kids, I'm not in the greatest of shape playing wise, and more importantly, I haven't been performing, which also means I won't get any 'decent' teaching position. I have to start playing first, get my name out. It's already 'out' here with organizing/teaching, and even playing to some extent. I just have to more actively push myself.
Your H might not be an alcoholic, but he sure is a CHOCOholic.
It sounds like a good plan... become more "independent" and able to be on your own, if need be. Keep in mind that it will take many months (if not years) for this to happen. In the meantime, you still need to cohabitate with H. This gives you the perfect opportunity to keep working on the LM issues.
At some point, you will decide that either you CAN be on your own or you CAN'T. If you CAN'T, then you need to compromise with H and find a "good place to be" for yourself. Find ways to go out by yourself at night, leaving H to watch the kids. Meet friends for a drink at a comedy club or a sports bar or something. Be happy on your own, if only for a few hours. Concentrate on being a greater mom for the kids. H will have to fend for himself more.
FF: Your H is making me MAD! What a total and complete creep he is being. I really hope Corri chimes in because he is totally invading your boundaries, and you need to reassert them. If he says something bad to you, you need to tell him that you won't be spoken to that way, and that if he continues, you will _____ (fill in the blank).
I think you're right about cooling it on the sex stuff...you guys need to work on the relationship, especially the respect issue, right now.
I know just how your dad feels. I was reading the post and thinking, how come Dad doesn't just bring her HOME?! I know this is pretty obvious, but he is probably hurting inside as he thinks about the treatment his little girl is getting from that jerk. If he were George Bush, we'd be invading Finland, FF.
{{{{FF}}}} Start practicing that flute, girl. You're one of the few on this board who need to seriously consider an exit strategy.
I'm not saying to cut and run right now. I'm kind of following up what is being said on another thread around here, which is, only threaten what you think you can realistically follow through. A plan is what you need.
Oh, FF you are SOOO right-- I do have your situation mixed up with cinema-- yikes! is my face red. One forms mental pictures of the people on the board and attempts to place them in a context... somehow I had placed her in Finland. I'm SURE there aren't TWO of you in Finland! I'm gonna have to write out a program for myself to tell the players apart. Most humble and embarrassed apologies....
Still, if his dad is an alcoholic, there are also behaviors associated with being the child of one (my bf and I are both children of alcoholics). Some of the characteristics are not knowing what is normal, boundary problems, shame, perfectionism.
The part I wrote about how you seem to be telling yourself you have to be way tot "nice" to him is still true. He doesn't seem to be very nice to you.
I'll go sit in the corner for a while and clear my head.
Flutter, I would have to agree with the others. H is being a complete turd. Has he always spoken to you this way or is this something new?
You know, having more sex did help our R in many ways, not just physical. But there was always respect and I would let my H know in a heartbeat if he stepped over the line. I suspect you do that, too, although I'm thinking it might come out as anger and allow your H to write it off as you being an overly emotional American. Or maybe the cultural things don't even come into play, but when the only time you stand up for yourself is in anger, it is awfully easy for the other person to ignore it, kwim.
It might be a good idea to think of a mantra, something simple that you repeat EVERY time he is disrespectful to you, and especially make sure you say it when he is doing it within earshot of your children. You are right that you are teaching your boys how to treat women and your girls how to be treated.
I would also quietly let him know that you don't like the way he speaks to you and that you want it to change. Be prepared for him to make some requests of you and be prepared to follow through on those requests. There is rarely a situation where only one partner needs to change.
Btw, Jenny, I LOVED your line about "hey if you prefer to preoccupy yourself with internet porn, that's your choice". LOL Oh man, I think you should say it Flutie. I am a very direct person and hardly ever pass up an opportunity to lay things on the line and that is just too good a line to waste, imo.
Oh and I also agree with Hairy that maybe the boundary setting book would be a great idea in your situation. Either that or let your John Wayne dad whoop his arse into shape.
I agree with others posting here. Your husband thinks he's just a little too smart. Is he shorter than you by any chance?
Jenny posted earlier about the possibility of you contacting the Guiness book. I like the idea of you turning his arguments right back at him. Of course, it would be good to keep a sense of humor about it, but he has to realize that you are not going to tolerate his superiority about this.
I have been known to yell at my wife but I know afterward that I have done wrong. Does your H experience guilt? He needs to.
Others may disagree with me, but I think you should consider telephone sessions with a C right here in the US of A. The Finn I am most familiar with is Huck, but from what you have told us, I'm afraid that your H's behavior might be considered quite normal there.
BTW, you are not on the edge of nowhere. You are near the north pole, the world revolves around YOU.
Wow, Thanks to all of you. It's great to know I have so many friends out there!! Hmm...wonder if there's a way I can set up a virtual sauna, great way to relax, hot steam, lots of beer...alot of Finnish businesses won't sign a deal 'till they've shared a sauna will all involved parties.
Anyway...brought dad to the airport yesterday. H was home when we got back, and we all ate dinner together. H was quiet, and I was really too exhausted to bring anything up, so I tried to be pleasant, but I was pretty quiet myself. H went off to do his own stuff, later we watched TV together, then went to bed. I didn't avoid him, but didn't say anything either.
H had asked in passing yesterday if we could do without both cars for the weekend. I said probably, and asked why. He just brushed me off. This morning he asked me to sign a paper - to get out of our tire storage deal with the place the tires are right now. I asked why he wanted out, he wouldn't tell me (this car is in my name). H said that there were lots of things he wanted to discuss with me, but I was in such a bad mood that he couldn't talk to me.(?)
So I told him I wouldn't sign until I knew. H went on for several minutes that he was running late and couldn't tell me right now (!) I pointed out that he seemed to have time to read his paper and eat his breakfast...nothing. So I tore up the paper and told him to ask me again when he's told me why.
I'm sure he'll be in a foul mood - I've messed up some plan of his, probably something very logical and good, but I do think I deserve to be told!
As I look back, I don't think I've done much in my M that I need to appologize for. Meaning...the anger I've mentioned before has been as a result of H's 'games', or whatever. I'm just speculating, which I know is dangerous, and I agree with Jenny that H probably doesn't even really know the source of his resentment. But H has said at times that he is afraid of me, and I saw this this morning. He was afraid to tell me what he was doing, for whatever reason. He should know that all I want is to be informed, and that usually-almost always- I agree with his plans, because in all honesty, they are usually very practical and good (and yes, I have told him many times I appreciate this trait of his). I just want to be considered an equal partner, and I want him to trust me.
I'll write more later, gotta go get D8 from school...
And I haven't been quite as wimpy as I come across here. Last night with the door slam, there really wasn't any point in saying anything, that's what H was looking for, to bait me. I'm not playing that game any more.
What a total and complete creep he is being. I really hope Corri chimes in because he is totally invading your boundaries, and you need to reassert them. If he says something bad to you, you need to tell him that you won't be spoken to that way, and that if he continues, you will _____ (fill in the blank). 
One forms mental pictures of the people on the board and attempts to place them in a context... somehow I had placed her in Finland. I'm SURE there aren't TWO of you in Finland! I'm gonna have to write out a program for myself to tell the players apart. Most humble and embarrassed apologies.... 
but I know afterward that I have done wrong. Does your H experience guilt? He needs to.