Oh Sage, I don't think it's selfish - It sounds very reasonable to me what you are looking for. In a sense it's like an insurance policy to guard against disaster. If we can name the feelings & thoughts that precede a wrong turn, we're more likely to stop the wrong turn from happening.
I asked the questions bec. I wondered if there was a different way to arrive at the same outcome. In other words, we've constructed a model whereby we need to talk about the past, about what led to that decision, to arrive at a map to avoid that same path again. Are they using a different model? One where they focus on what they want now, what decisions lead to that goal, and what behaviors are needed to achieve the desired outcome which they have come to decide is NOT the other path? So for them reviewing the past takes them off-track on the way to the current goals.
I have no answers, unfortunately... Having seen the trend on the board repeatedly, where talking about the A. often leads to backslides, arguments, & negatives, I began to ponder if we were stuck in a rigid model (or tunnel) that isn't working. While I believe the goals of our model are valid, I wondered how we might look at through a different model.
Anyways, no need to go along pondering with me - it just might be my needless mental gymnastics!
BTW, I think your keeping track of your efforts at H's LL is GREAT!
First off, I adopted the tracking LL stuff from MovingForward Such a great idea!
I think your thoughts about how we're possibly using different models to assess progress towards goals is apt...and while I commented on h's "clinging" to some myths I neglected to own up to my own clinging to one "the past predicts the future" -- I can easily become very entrenched in feeling that way and then fear steps in and I get totally freaked out
To your point, I think it would be equally valid and wonderful (and very "db'ing") to focus forward on goals...to say "here's what I want in my M, my life and here's how I track how well I'm doing to get there"...when I back myself out of the cheeseless tunnel I'm ok about doing that...it's really the "focus" of my KLA thread -- looking forward and improving some of the areas in my m that can provide strength and a solid foundation, etc. I STILL get stuck (impatient? unforgiving?) around the notion that progress towards goals just isn't always articulated to me in my native tongue...for example...the other night my h used "I want a D immediately" as a messaging system for "this topic is bringing me real pain and I want to stop discussing it". Maybe it's just my thick skull..not HEARING my h's unhappiness until the D word gets thrown about or an EA comes to light.
On the one hand, I often feel insightful and empathetic towards h and on the other I often feel like I must be deaf, dumb and blind when it comes to understanding how he really feels about stuff.
that's why journalling and tracking positives and hearing from you guys helps.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Quote: "In the 6 months OF the EA, I felt X, Y and Z during the conversations where you brought up your fears and I lied to you".
I think this is one of the most important things for me to know, too. "My" OW is a friend, too, and so it is a very slippery slope. They've been at it for years, on and off, wishing and hoping, mourning "them," etc. What makes it different now? This is why I want to talk to S. about it.
How capable are our Hs of using different strategies of dealing with fear/pain/whatever? This is when talking about what happened and why can dissolve some of these fears. Although... I'm still not sure it actually works.
As I posted to your other thread, does talking about it just reassure you that you are right and you were wronged? I know the answer can't be yes, entirely, but it is something to think about.
If I had to sum it up I would say that I want to hear from my h that he "GETS IT", where "it" actually encompasses a great deal. I want to hear that he's thought about what he was feeling prior to the pivot point of embarking upon the A (and I recognize that perhaps that reflects a logic and reasonableness that doesn't exist at that time) SO I also want to hear what he understands about himself and his feelings around the time that he was lying to my face about his involvement with OW.
YES, YES, & YES...
I am still not "there" yet in my healing or forgiveness or security because of this very same issue.
I've said before that the A itself (which we did talk about in great detail when he finally fessed up to it all in spring of '03)...is not my biggest stumbling block now.
I don't ask about her, I don't need to know any more.
What still tears me up is HOW CJ could have treated me like that...I mean some men cheat and treat their wives WELL at that time...he treatd me like sh!t, dragged me through the mire, left me in limbo for nearly a year, let me believe it was ALL my fault, LIED and LIED and LIED to my face.
What did he tell himself to make all those lies and actions okay?: buying her a ring, sending her money from our joint savings (all of which was my paycheck money) taking her to 5 star hotels in distant cities, leaving his cell off so I wouldn't disturb them, taking 2 hours to rent a movie and then accusing me of being his parole officer when I commented
And also like Sage...when was the line crossed? When did she (and the one before her) go from "chat line buddy" to a "romantic interest" and then to a "soul mate"?
He SAYS this will never happen again...but didn't he vow to "love honour and cherish me...holding only unto me" 12 years ago? He went back on those fervent promises didn't he?
So like Sage, it's a sense of understanding I'm hoping for, so I can "get" why he did that stuff (and perhaps apologize for THAT vs just the infidelities). And more importantly NOT let things build up inside of him to the point where he's that vulnerable again.
As is it seems like those were actions of someone who despised me, who cared not at all, who wanted to inflict intentional hurt.
Was it payback for my years of controlling? My temper? My perfectionism? I've agonized over all of that, I've analysed it, I've CHANGED it, I've apologized from my heart again and again for it. And I've spoken to him about this entire journey of mine. He knows that I GET it regarding what I (with little conscious awareness) did to him.
Yes, my thoughtlessness has hurt him a great deal in the past...but he set out to hurt me, I dare say he RELISHED it for a time. I can't quite get over that.
We're so alike in some ways Sage, it's good to have others here with a different take!
But how does one heal THIS kind of specific thing by looking at the here and now? I know a present focus is what we're doing with the love life problem...I will NOT bring up the A or OW, even when it comes to my mind...I know it's just counter-productive.
I had lunch with my sister on Friday and she summed up her biggest stumbling block to forgiveness as this:
"I want to know that given the same set of circumstances, s/he would make a different choice and not go down the same road"
I thought that was a great way of summing it up...AND we weren't even talking about H or M or infidelity but about other stuff!
*********** Had a great weekend...Friday had lunch with sis and dinner (birthday) with brother and dad and stepmom. My dad is so angry all the time...but I didn't let it freak me out (for once!)
Saturday I ran some errands and h studied. We went over a friend's house for a BBQ -- it's h's best friend who recently moved back to the area. It was a very nice time...they also have two really great and funny kids.
Yesterday we both studied and I cooked h cassoulet in the crockpot (he's been asking for it). It came out GREAT! We took a walk yesterday afternoon and then watched TV last night.
It was just an amazingly calm weekend. H was incredibly loving and told me a bunch of times ILY AND he said "honey, I can feel how much you love me" which is EXACTLY what I need to hear.
Whoops! Gotta run!
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Hi Sage - What a lot of stuff happening here, and personally, I'd like to see this as a stepping stone. Lots of ideas that I'm going to steal... off to your KLA thread.
OK...I'm back! Getting ready to head out to school in a bit...
PIB -- Thanks for the visit! Sounds like you and h made some progress this weekend! When h is ready to quit I highly recommend the patch -- I also have some other suggestions, too but not until he's ready!
Slowly...wondering how you've been?
*********** anyway...not too much to add to my note of this AM -- but I did want to comment that I really felt like h was focused on MY ll's this week...he was very loving and verbal and went out of his way to let me know that he was thinking of me and ALSO that he knew I was thinking of him.
Must have been the Cassoulet ******** How am I doing today?
QT: Went to the gym this AM, spent some time working on the football scoreboard we have...I have school tonight so time will be more limited
AOS: I did the dishes in the sink this AM which could be a big +.
WOA: Hmmm...some very nice e-mails flying back and forth but nothing overt...I think I need to tell him what a great weekend I had with him!
PT: Some nice handholding, kisses ...
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Thanks for the visit...yah, things are definitely feeling GREAT over here! AND, I'm loving what I'm reading on YOUR thread! Sounds like you have a whole new social circle to hang out with!!!
************ Had school last night...it went well, I think! I've got another group project and I'm trying to take a more measured approach to working with the team...listening more, letting others take the lead, etc. Kind of a 180 for me to not go charging in there!
Yesterday and this AM were studies in h doing things for me in my LL's... When I got home from school last night he had prepared my water bottle for me (every night on the way to bed I fill up a bottle of water to take with me...he had done it!). this AM I got out of the shower, he picked up a towel and dried me off! How sexy and cute is that??? He also praised the food that I made for him over the weekend
How am I doing with his?
QT: Didn't have much time yesterday but did the football scorecard and also hung out last night watching a bit of tv and catching up.
AOS: hmm...I hope I'm still cashing in on the cooking from over the weekend
WOA: Thanked him for his thoughtfulness (his AOS to me)
PI: cuddling on the couch
******** Would like to be a bit more creative about AOS and WOA...gotta think up a couple of small things to do.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Slowly 
