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Barney, I'm going to introduce another loose cannon onto the deck... waiting until the children are older to divorce isn't always such a good idea. Let me direct you to this book:

A Grief out of Season: When Your Parents Divorce in your Adult Years

"This book addresses not only the immediate crisis but also the deep long-lasting distress of adults whose parents divorce."

My late husband divorced when his last child was just out of college. She never forgave him, and in fact, would not come into his room in the ICU when he was dying. In some families, "the stress of divorces among older couples on their adult children is distinctly different from and more severe than that experienced by younger offspring of divorcing parents, contend freelance writer Fintushel (whose parents were divorced when she was 22) and family therapist Hillard."

For some older kids (and believe me, the ones cited in this book are BITTER), they feel that all their good childhood memories are invalidated by their parents' divorce, and now that they are grown and out of the house, there is no chance to create any more new childhood memories. The people interviewed for this book feel like their childhood was stolen, that their parents were living a lie all their lives. They wonder if their parents ever loved each other. When did the lying start, were those family Christmases and trips to Disney World all a sham? Did you hate each other then, too, and just pretend for our sake?... it gets really ugly. The book chilled me to the bone.

Let's face it, divorce is hard on everyone-- especially children. But young children are adaptable, and nowadays, many of their friends come from divorced homes. When I was a kid, being a Catholic and an Air Force brat who lived on base, I didn't know a divorced person that I was aware of until I was in college! Now, it is very common, for good or for ill. I don't think children of divorce today feel like damaged goods or oddballs like they did when I was a kid. If anything, the kid whose original parents are still married is the unusual one

This book will curl your hair and may obliterate any reasons you have for sticking around "for the sake of the children."

I think I've talked about my sitch. somewhere here, but I couldn't find it, so I'll comment here again. My dad left when I was 20. I was away at school, my sister was 18 and at home, got the full 'brunt' of my mom's frustration.

Was it better they waited? I don't know. I understand the feeling of having your childhood memories stolen! My mom is still (after 20 yrs) so bitter that she counts the hrs spent with her compared to my dad. At one point she figured it must be because my dad has money(?!?) so she started buying expensive gifts she couldn't afford to 'win' us to 'her side'. Each time I'm in the states with the kids, at some point, mom starts a fight about how horrible we are that we've abandonded her for my dad (has nothing to do apparently with me living so far away, that she somehow deals with). She told me once she would never marry again, because she didn't want to bring another man into my life (?)

But I wonder what it would be like if dad had left when I was a kid, and if we had been alone with mom going through this stuff! Maybe she would have been more resilient when she was younger. I see now looking back, that she was not alone in blame for the demise in the marriage, but I know she was the LD partner.

So it's a really hard call for me. Maybe my mom would've remarried if she had been younger, but I suspect if she had, that marriage would have been just as problematic. I wonder if my dad would have even thought of fighting for custody, as he is a bit 'old world', and wouldn't have wanted to take the kids away from their mom.

If both parents were 'adults' about it, and were both able to go on, remarry wisely? Maybe then it would be better to do it while the kids are young, if it's going to happen.

I also look at my in-laws, who married late, and stayed together, and now, after 30 yrs, they do sort of rely on one another, but I still couldn't say that their's is a marriage I'd want to emmulate.

Fife,
I agree with Lillie on the affect of divorce being much greater on adult kids than on young children. If you're staying for the sake of your kids, it would be advantagious to find out if that is really the best for them.
What if you stayed all those years, and then left, thinking they would be okay, since they are older, and now able to take care of themselves. That may be the problem right there. When they have left the house, they won't have either parent to guide them through their feelings of loss.
Maybe you could check out the book by James Dobson, "Life on the Edge". This book addresses kids from the age of 18 to 24. He believes this is one of the most critical times in a person's life.

Feb, FF, et al,

It sounds like I'm being counseled to split sooner than later. That's a bit scary for me, as my greatest fear would be to not see my kids every day. There has been so much missing from my life for so long that my kids truly are my only joy. (There was one brief period I was happy except for the guilt...but I digress.)

As a side note, my W and I had a real talk last night where I outlined the issues I was no longer willing to "roll over for" (emotional manipulation and control).I have no power to cause them to change and no reason to expect her to change them, but I'm unwilling to let them go without challenge any longer. It wasn't a pretty sight and the "when" question may now be moot.

Thank you for a different POV. I have considered it before, but more from the question of what kind of M example am I providing for my kids than the one you raised. I have some thinking to do.

I think what we're really trying to show you is that you DO have a choice. If you realize you have a choice-- a REAL choice, and then DECIDE to stay, then you know you're choosing to stay. But if you feel trapped with no options, you're just a prisoner.

My best friend finally divorced after a counselor told her that she and her husband had been living "with a dead body (the marriage)" for 10 years. They were married 17. She bought a house one street over from his house, and the kids lived just about equal time at both houses. Both parents DID see the kids virtually every day. And they could relate to the kids on their own without the inter-parental tension (of which there was plenty). Yeah, there was sadness... divorce under the best of circumstances is very, very hard. But she's happily remarried and has finally stopped hating her ex.

What kind of an example are you giving them being miserable every day and with no "good vibes" between you and their mom... what is that teaching them?

Maybe we can hear from some other people on the board whose parents are divorced. My parents stayed together, but I used to wish they WOULD divorce. There was no love in our household. I thought that each of them might have a chance at happiness with someone else, and then maybe I would have a chance at a normal family life. But they stayed together until the bitter, bloody end. They didn't do me or themselves any favor.

I've been watching this thread and thinking a lot. I divorced my first W because, among many other reasons, I thought I could be a better father to my kids without her around. I was right. I was spending way too much time taking care of her and her various addictions, including mine of being her martyr. Now the kids tell me that they feel more relaxed and happy around my house.

My X and I and my two sons are going to a C for the first time tomorrow. X was complaining that they are out of control at her house . . . it's basically because they don't respect her because of her abuse (she's a mean drunk), she's not consistent in her discipline, and she shows big-time favoritism to DD9 over them. Anyway, I'll let you know how it goes. One goal is to get the boys to confront their mom about her alcoholism, but that's a lot to put on their shoulders.

I don't feel that, in my current M, leaving would be the right thing . . . at least not now. At some point, if the SSM doesn't improve, I may reconsider it. I just keep on HOPING...ya know?

Hairdog

HD,

Thanks for your post. I can certainly relate to your feelings, past and present.

Good luck with the C tomorrow. I'm betting your kids have learned from your example of strength and will surprise you with their's.

I'm a proponent of holding on to whatever hope is available! Clearly you see hopeful signs in your W and M. Hang on for dear life for as long as you can!

Congrats on "being a man" for 30 years, too. We all see the evidence. (And I don't mean your circumcision is showing!)

Barney,

I really didn't mean to say that I think D is a good option. If I did, I probably wouldn't be here myself. I really don't want to break up my family, and I don't want H or myself to have to be part-time parents.

If I look at both my parents, and my in-laws, I don't think either is a good example of what to strive for. I don't believe either pair really worked on things. My parents went to C for a while, but I really think it was a case of too little too late - my dad was already out the door, and my mom didn't think she had anything to do with it. MIL has just put up with FIL's controling behavior and sort of taken on the quiet martyr role.

I don't want to become my Mom or my MIL. I want to show my kids that a M is a loving partnership which can bring lots of joy, and is worth all the work. I can only hope that H can find the same goal. But if he doesn't? It's really hard for me to say that D might be an option, even though I have talked about 'exit strategies'...I've sort of felt that having a way out would make my position stronger, but I have a hard time thinking about using it. What bothers me more than a little is that I feel that way because I don't like the idea of my kids growing up in a 'broken home' more than because I love my H so much that I don't want to loose him.

FF wrote:
What bothers me more than a little is that I feel that way because I don't like the idea of my kids growing up in a 'broken home' more than because I love my H so much that I don't want to lose him.
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You and I have the same feelings about this. It sucks and is depressing. I'm sorry for us both.