Thanks for the thoughtful response. I do think that she in fact wants/needs me to try and be "The Enforcer," but after over 10 years of trying, I guess I've finally given up. I would unilaterally come up with -- or she and I together would work up -- all kinds of chore lists, point systems, etc., over the years. None of them worked, and the reason why is because SHE IS THE ONE THAT IS HOME 90% OF THE TIME, and she would never enforce it! I cannot come home and enforce in just a few hours every evening and then on the weekend what she has not enforced in my absence.
So it wouldn't work anyway, and I would end up being the "bad guy" to the kids, and mom was the "nice" one, and I got tired of it.
But, logically, I KNOW you are right -- she is not capable of enforcing this for some reason.
Choc., who's now a GOOD guy again to his kids, but still gets no sex from his DW.
There are two sayings that come to mind when I read your last post.
1) Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results each time.
2) Do the things you've always done and get the results you've always gotten....try something different.
I know how much it sucks to be the "bad guy" I have been told many times that the kids see me as the bad guy and have been told this from my wife! When S2 throws something across the room I tell him he is wrong and I make him sit on the couch. She he dumps his juice cup on the floor, I tell him he did wrong and I make him sit on the couch.
When D8 does something "bad" I am the one who tells her what she did was wrong and I am the one who grounds her from cartoons or what ever it is she wants to do at the time.
Wife always says they are just kids, they don't know any better. No sh!t they don't, no one is telling them they are wrong to do what they were doing. How can they possibly learn right from wrong if everything is ok since they don't know any better. I didn't grow up in the land of the "fruits and nuts" (no offense intended) where it is about how you feel and not what is right or wrong.
When I was growing up (not long ago I am only 35), parents where not afraid of their kids or of someone video taping them and maybe reporting them for abuse if they used a switch on the kid who was doing wrong. It didn't take long to figure out what was right and waht was wrong. One swat or even a friend getting a swat and you knew not to do that again.
No I do not advocate violence at all, there are many things you can do that does not cause physical pain but still gets the point across. But doing nothing will not get it done.
In your case, you will likely find even though your kids see you as the bad guy, they will respect you more then they do your wife IF you put your foot down. It is not too late to be the enforcer and your kids will be better for it in the long run.
Stay strong, make a change and stick to it for a while to see how it works. Good luck
dazedandconfuzed - knows it is much easier to give advice then take it but the Packers are 1-0!
Dazed, thanks for the pep talk. I actually needed to hear that, and have in the past 24 hours already put it to use with the kids, with a "bad grades" problem with one of my daughters. I've been MUCH more forceful and took some leadership, which my DW definitely seemed to appreciate. Thanks!
Interestingly, from my wife last nite, another comment that I would define loosely as "the martyr thing." When I suggested that our daughter be grounded until her grades improved, my wife initially agreed, but then said "but we didn't give her any warning, and I'm sure she has already made plans for this weekend. Maybe we should start it NEXT week...", to which I of course reminded her that it's SUPPOSED to be painful, talked about consequences for the child's actions, etc.
She agreed with me, but said "I guess I'm just tired."
Ugh, that word again.
Choc: What do you mean? Mrs. Choc.: Don't you ever just get tired? Choc.: Tired of what? Do you not agree that this is the right thing to do (with DD)? Mrs. Choc.: Yes, but don't you ever just get tired? I guess I'm just tired of everything. Choc: Everything? Like what? Mrs. Choc.: The rules, the problems, the this, the that... Choc.: Actually, the kids have all been doing extremely WELL in school, and this is the first discipline problem we've had. What are you referring to? Mrs. Choc.: Oh, never mind. You wouldn't understand. You never understand. Choc.: What is that supposed to mean? Mrs. Choc.: Nevermind. I guess I'm just tired, that's all.
I swear, we have these conversations all the time. I work JUST as hard as she does; why is she always "tired" and "beat" and why does she always have to ANNOUNCE it to the family?
Choc., who's tired of his sexy wife being tired all the time.
Wait a minute, Choc, you haven't been hangin' w/ my W, have you? For a second I thought I was reading my post but didn't remember writing it, then I realized it wasn't signed GGB
It always amazes me how similar we HD husbands are, and how similar the LD wifes are, and how much I can learn about my wife just be reading about how other people deal with THEIR wives (even though it's not as productive as facing my own problems myself).
Even the reference to "the mom on 'Everybody Loves Raymond' was creepy, since that's exactly who MY wife reminds me and the kids of!
Quote: Choc.: Actually, the kids have all been doing extremely WELL in school, and this is the first discipline problem we've had. What are you referring to? Mrs. Choc.: Oh, never mind. You wouldn't understand. You never understand. Choc.: What is that supposed to mean? Mrs. Choc.: Nevermind. I guess I'm just tired, that's all.
It sounds like it's time for a 'big' convo. At least here, 'you wouldn't understand' seems to be shorthand for 'I really don't want to go into explaining what's wrong because it would mean that we have to face a lot of stuff that's going to be scary and hard, and I don't have the strength to do that'
Last time H used that (and I've been guilty of it too, trying to be better), I pushed him -
H 'You wouldn't understand'
M 'I might not, but I certainly can't if you don't tell me'
H 'You'll get upset if I tell you'
M 'I might, but I might be able to help if you explain things to me'
I took a while, but eventually, I did get H to open up a little, and it has led us to be able to hold civil convos on everyday subjects, and even be a little affectionate. I know we've got to do a lot more, but it was a start.
I am 1000% certain you are right, but still have a hard time drawing her out. Men often get accused of not being "understanding," and yet in our marriage, at least, it's usually me who's trying to get her to open up more about what she's feeling.
I think she knows that I will call her on her b.s. when she pulls the "martyr" thing, and says she's "tired," "beat," "overwhelmed," etc. I know as "Martians" we're not supposed to offer SOLUTIONS all thle time, but rather are to LISTEN, but when she complains that she's overwhelmed, I tend to tell her that she needs to delegate more work to the kids, since I already work harder around the house than most husbands do, or that frankly I even care to.
When she points out that she doesn't get to do what she wants to do, or have fun, or doesn't feel like she's accomplishing what she wants to with her life, I usually call her on that as well, and say "You can do whatever you want to do, and I will support you 100%. We're the grown-ups here, and we merely need to let the kids know what's important to Mom, and what we're doing."
I guess my dilemna is, I'm supposed to be empathetic, and just listen and let her vent and not offer solutions all the time, but yet I also -- honestly -- feel she needs to be challenged and called out on it when her "martyr complex" kicks in. She KNOWS that what I'm saying is right, and yet she struggles to do it, and CERTAINLY doesn't want to TALK to me about it, cuz she's not going to get the sympathy she's apparently looking for.
Meanwhile, I firmly believe that in her head, this (she's tired, beat, unfulfilled and misunderstsood) is the way she excuses herself for not providing the affection that I've openly said I need from her.
I'm new here, so maybe you've already tried this (for years), but how about:
She: I'm tired.
You: Yeah, you have an awful lot to do around here. It must feel overwhelming for you.
She: Yeah, sometimes does.
You: What's that like for you?
She: (startled and suspicious) What do you mean, 'what's it like?'
You: I want to understand how it feels for you in this R when you feel overwhelmed. I really want to understand and listen to you.
She: (still suspicious) Well, I feel like I'm responsible for so much. That all the things that need to happen won't happen unless I stay on duty all the time. (loosening up a bit) And, you know, it's funny. It's not even the stuff that needs 'doing' as much as it is the mental exhaustion of always having it lurking in the back of your mind. It's really like being mentally on duty 24/7. (wondering if she's said too much and now you'll start telling her how to 'fix' herself and the situation... she withdraws a bit)
You: Yeah, I get that. (but you surprise her!) You know, when we were kids, we used to worry about homework, and pimples, and was that guy or gal that we liked ever going to call us-- we thought we had SOOO much on our minds. Now, just being a grown-up is so damn hard... and being a parent on top of that! Just making sure everyone is safe, fed, sheltered, healthy, happy-- God, it would be great to just get out from under every now and then. But even on vacation-- we're still the grown-ups! Safe, fed, healthy, and happy-- we even have to deliver that to the kids on OUR days off! It sometimes just seems to be too much... (pregnant pause... let it go on for as long as necessary)
She: I wish I didn't feel so tired all the time. I want to have fun, too, but I seem to have forgotten how. If I relax my vigilance for even a minute, then I get behind on something or other that needs doing. (she's testing you to see if you're going to offer solutions...don't take the bait)
You: Let's think about that and talk about it again sometime soon. We're in this together. I know it sometimes may not feel that way, but it's you and me. (end of convo for now)
Maybe on another occasion: She: I know I could delegate more to the kids, but (choose one) a) they have so much to do anyway. Being a kid is not like when we were kids. They have so much homework and extracurricular things, and there's already so much pressure on them. I want them to be kids while they still can; or b) I feel like I'm shirking when I delegate too much. It's my responsibility to do certain things; or c) my parents didn't give me chores to do, so I just don't feel comfortable with that; or d) my parents gave me a billion chores to do, so I'm not comfortable with that.
The thing about you listening to her and not offering solutions AT ALL is that if she talks enough, she might get to the bottom of why she's really tired all the time... and it may be something surprising... and something that CAN easily be fixed.
I'm positive she doesn't do it just to piss you off... well, I'm fairly certain of that.
I know that feeling of being On Duty all the time-- my late husband was disabled throughout our marriage, and I used to be mentally exhausted ALL OF THE TIME. The only other emotion that crept in was anger at the situation. Yes, I loved him... BUT... it was very hard...
I question whether 'calling her on her stuff' will ever be effective. It just makes the other person defensive, and then your excellent point is lost in the heat of battle.
