Mojo wrote: I hope you aren't implying that you are LD about hugs. Maybe you've just had too many hugs that didn't lead to anything good. Now you are afraid if you open up a can of hug the snakes will pop out and there won't be any peanuts.
Wow. I think that was my lamest analogy yet. -------------------------
I'm definitely not LD about hugs, in a sexually active R, at least. I guess I'm a little gun shy about them, as you surmise, however.
My personal experience is that hugs were presented as the only thing necessary. "Hugs" meaning non-sexual touching and affection. The SSM definitely put me off to a lot of what I would otherwise enjoy.
As far as your weak analogy goes, it was all those *** in my previous post that threw you off. (Either that or the guy's pics in SD's post. )
Must we beat into your pea-brained head that sex alone will not cure all that ails these relationships. I've had plenty of lovers where sex was the entire content of the relationship for long periods of time. Most of the time, it was just fine with me as we bot got what we wanted, pleasurable sex with a willing partner and no strings.
But there were plenty of times that I would have traded all of that for an emotional connection, rather than a sexual one. The sexual one can become shallow and meaningless over time without the EC. I know that you were being flip, but it rather struck me the wrong way. Perhaps becasue I need both and know that most relationships need the EC and the SC plus a plethoria of other traits to truely be a good marriage.
Quote: It's pathetic how similar your situation is to mine. The only real difference is you are someone who loses her temper when upset and I am someone who either puts on a fake smile or cries when pushed to the brink. Also, my H would never even go to the trouble of buying a phone for my daughter. She would remain forever phoneless until it got to the top of my TO DO list. Do you sometimes feel like your H sucks all the energy out of you? Do you think you would find it kind of relaxing if he traveled a lot like my H does now?
Yes, I do feel that H sucks the energy out of me, yes, I would find it very relaxing if H traveled a lot, and it is absolutely about hugs (and any other form of affection/support) as well as sex!
My H doesn't drink - really almost not at all, which I suspect may have to do with the fact that his Dad does (but he does snore, which is why I'm sitting here right now ). I've wondered sometimes if he 'withholds' sex, but I'm not sure if that's really a contious thing. I know H is nowhere near as comfortable in bed(=with himself??) as your H seems to be.
Last summer, the 6 weeks in the states were the most relaxing vacation I've had in a long time. I had to keep telling myself that singlemotherhood would only be like that if I were independently wealthy ie could afford to be home most of the time, and have live-in help (I stayed most of the time with my Dad + his W, a wonderful woman who enjoyed taking care of us) so I would go back.
The phone annoyed me, because even though H said it was a spur of the moment thing, I know it was very premeditated. Kids here don't have regular school days - different length days every day and H had gone to pick up D8 after I had picked up D6 an hr or so before. That annoyed him, but he didn't say anything. Later after I left for work, he dropped all the kids but D8, and went to pick up a wedding present for his bro. So H claims he was just looking for a new phone for him - but he made the point of only taking D8 along. H didn't want to ask me beforehand, because he knew I might disagree - or at least want to discuss it beforehand.
Honestly, just a phone call would have worked, and H should have known that about me as well.
Right now I still can only be annoyed at H for anything BUT sex, 'cause he's still got a wall the size of China's around that. And I have so much resentment I'm not sure how interested I am in scaling that wall I keep telling myself that if H realized (remembered?) how good sex can be, things would get better, H would be more relaxed, friendlier, etc...but there's still that voice in the back of my head...
Quote: I've wondered sometimes if he 'withholds' sex, but I'm not sure if that's really a contious thing.
Did you indicate in one of your posts that your H used porn even though he didn't have sex with you. This was true in my relationship also. Think about how this contrasts with the behavior of many of the LD wives. If you really don't like or desire sexual activity than I would say that you can't really consciously decide to "withhold" it. What was your H or my H thinking as they pulled out their porn stash or trolled the internet for excitement. Clearly, they wanted to engage in a sexual activity. Are our needs so unimportant that they didn't even consider them or did they consider our needs and consciously decide to ignore them once again? Before I figured out how frequently my H was MBing, I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he just had a very low drive due to depression or hormones or genetics. Learning just how much of his sexual energy was being directed elsewhere was what put me over the edge. My harshest interpretation of the situation is that ignoring your wife and using porn instead is just the introverted man's version of having an affair or visiting prostitutes. The emotional effect is the same.(Note to all HD men reading this post. I do not think using porn in addition to trying to satisfy your wife or because your wife is unable to satisfy you is wrong.)
Clearly, I am in quite a mood tonight because I compared withholding sex to physical abuse and using porn instead of satisfying your partner to having an affair. I guess I'm just trying to come to terms with why I am having so much trouble trusting that the changes my H is trying to make will be permanent. Maybe this is why you feel yourself to be somewhat unmotivated to even try.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Think about how this contrasts with the behavior of many of the LD wives. If you really don't like or desire sexual activity than I would say that you can't really consciously decide to "withhold" it. What was your H or my H thinking as they pulled out their porn stash or trolled the internet for excitement. Clearly, they wanted to engage in a sexual activity. Are our needs so unimportant that they didn't even consider them or did they consider our needs and consciously decide to ignore them once again?
Mo, Heapmom,
This subject is a source of some pain to me as well. I have always known that my H was masturbating with some frequency. He is not an avid consumer of porn, but does look at it on occassion (as far as I know).
I have no problems with porn. We used to watch it together occassionally, but he told me at one point that it ruined it for him. (Any takers on what that means?). So we stopped watching together, but he will watch it sometimes or go online. He has never tried to hide or flaunt it. On the one hand, it hurts me to think that he was, as Mo rightly pointed out, engaging in a sexual activity while deliberately excluding me. On the other hand, he would at times talk about using porn to get himself in the mood for me, because his drive is not what it used to be. I am honestly confused about what to feel about it anymore. I have decided not to traumatize myself over it. I do believe that watching porn and masturbating was his way of relieving himself, and this happened as a fallout of other things in our relationship. Yes, absolutely, he was withholding. This is clear to me now. I don't think he did it to deliberately hurt me. I guess he was hurting as well.
Mo, if it helps, here are some reasons that H gave me over the years for why we weren't having enough sex. At the time, I always dismissed it as the excuse of the moment, but some are blatantly true and others have some grain of truth in them. In no particular order, here we go:
- His sex drive is lower than mine. Yes, he has no problem being candid about this. He will even say that his testosterone levels have dropped, but has refused to get them checked.
- He feels he is giving more to the marriage, and having sex with me would be one more area where he would be giving in.
- I once told him that we did the same thing all the time and this turned him off
- We did the same thing all the time and this turned him off (This was told at a different time period )
- I expected too much foreplay and he felt he was doing all the work
- All the usual reasons - too late at night, too tired, too busy etc.
I do want to revisit some of the history with H at some point in time, but I feel it is counterproductive right now to the healing process.
Mo, I feel your pain. I really do. But do you think going down this line of thought is helping you at this point?
Quote: Mo, I feel your pain. I really do. But do you think going down this line of thought is helping you at this point?
I don't know, but I keep having these thoughts, so I guess I need to deal with them somehow.
Quote: Yes, absolutely, he was withholding. This is clear to me now. I don't think he did it to deliberately hurt me. I guess he was hurting as well.
He feels he is giving more to the marriage, and having sex with me would be one more area where he would be giving in.
Everybody gets hurt in relationships sometimes. Everybody feels like things are not equitable in relationships sometimes. What differs is the way in which people choose to respond to or express these feelings of hurt or inequity. I am simply no longer willing to be married to a man who chooses to withhold sex as a response to marital pressures because given my nature the effect is too traumatic. An estremely timid woman might not be able to handle a yelling husband, an extremely jealous woman might not be able to handle a husband who had an affair, an extremely frugal woman might not be able to handle a man who gambled. Well, I am extremely HD. I guess in someways this is a weakness because I absolutely can't handle having a husband who withholds sex. It's not that I think he is a villain or even a bad person for doing it. I just know that it is very damaging to me because lack of sex can put me in a depression which is every bit as physically real as a broken arm and therefore I have to protect myself. Your mileage may vary.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I understand. I agree. My mileage is actually very close to yours.
What I am getting at is this. You and I have both made considerable progress. Now that we understand what caused the lack of sex in our respective marriages, does it matter what it was? In other words, as long as we can prevent it from happening in the future, why dwell on it? Maybe I am totally off track here, maybe I am still in denial, but I want to move forward.
Sorry, heapmom, for this terrible hijack of your thread!
Aghh, I just wrote a long, insightful reply to you all, and now I just lost it
Anyway...J33, don't feel bad about 'hijacking' keep going!!! I've been through the same lines of thought that you have, it's very helpful to hear how you've dealt with it (and know I'm not alone!!)
I've been through the whole gammit of thinking that this must be an abusive relationship, to feeling that I was exaggerating the whole thing. Which is right? I'm not sure, and I don't know how much it matters in the end.
Mo, in a way, I think I'm further along than you are. Meaning, I was the 'there's nothing wrong and I'm to blame' W about 4-5 yrs ago, before the twins. I guess that was such an overwhelming experience, maybe I did some diferentiating already then? I know I did grow as a person, and was able to see how much I had grown as a result of living here, as a foriegner. Maybe that's the crisis I went through.
I don't remember what it was that started me talking, but it felt so good, and got me very angry at the same time. At some point I realized that my just talking and getting angry wasn't going to do anything either, and I managed to find my way here.
Does it do any good to think like this? Mo, I've sensed that there has been still something bothering you. Is this it? Is it that you wonder how long it's going to last? Has H really changed, does he really understand how much he hurt you? And are you doing the right thing staying there?
I think part of the reason I'm 'dragging my feet' right now, is that I know next week H goes back to work, which = stress, which = miserable. And winter's coming...this summer's been so cr*ppy that we're all going to be bad this winter, and I don't want to think how H is going to be...
Mo, J33 I'm watching you to see if this is possible. To see if things can change, permanently. I know the danger in that is that we're all different inspite of the similarities on the surface, but it's something, anyway.
NOPkins, I guess I'll dig up your old threads to read. The advice I've seen you give here seems so insightful, so caring, and to know you've dealt with this in some way - it would be great to hear your side of things.
I understand very well the idea behind PM and SSM that if one person in a R changes, they will bring about change in the other. I know as a mother of 4 that I need to be calm and in charge (and hold on to myself big time) if I want my children to feel comfortable and have space to grow. I know as a flute teacher that people pick up body language very easily - I can affect changes in my students just by the way I stand during a lesson.
But I'm really beginning to question how effective these ideas are in a 'equal' R (meaning a M rather than a R where I'm supposed to be in charge)if there's only one person who's initiating the change. I've just read through the explanation of hugging till relaxed in PM, and I really wonder how if it is possible to get any benefit from this in a 'reasonable' amount of time if only one partner is aware of what is going on.
The other night, during our 'date', I really broke down at one point. H asked if I wanted him to leave me alone for a while, and I said, 'No, what I really would like is a hug'. I had just read about the idea of hugging till relaxed, and I was determined I would 'stand on my own two feet'.
I stood, holding on to myself, and H leaned on me in the hug - and bolted after about 4 seconds. I did feel a little better, it did feel very good to hold on to myself that way for even that short a time.
What kind of results have you all had with the hugging? Do you explain the idea to your S? If yes, how, and if no - do you get to the point that your S doesn't bolt? The examples that Schnarch uses are examples of couples who are in therapy with him together, so that both have an understanding of what is going on, and both get the benefit of having a coach. I guess I'm just asking, do you get any kind of result with hugging till relaxed without telling your S what's going on?
H continues to 'pick' at me. In a way, this is a breakthrough, H+I hadn't been speaking much at all, and pretty much avoiding contact with each other. Now that I've made it obvious that I want to change things, H seems to see it as an opportunity to tell me what I do that bother him. I try to hold on to myself, but I'm not always good at it, and as soon as I loose it once, it gives H more fuel to point out what I'm doing wrong.
I've decided that I'm in a RSM (respect starved M) rather than 'just' an SSM (and I'll admit that I may lack as much respect for H as he seems to for me). Actually, as I read that last statement, I don't know if that's really what's going on. I do lack respect for H, mainly because I feel he lacks respect for himself. H has sometimes said that he is afraid of me, and now I'm starting to think that may be true - in that he's afraid that I can really stand on my own two feet. I'm not sure whether or not he has any respect for me, because he doesn't show it.
But in reality, I can't stand completely alone. Maybe I'm not diferentiated enough, but I really would need someone to be the strong one once in a while. I feel as though I do most of the housework, and caring for the kids, and I need a break from being the 'boss'. I also know that this may be an indication of how fused this R is, because I'm sure if you asked H, he would feel that the burden of responsibility falls on him. I want to know how to get to the place where we are both able to accept that our realities may be different - and that that doesn't really matter.
I don't know if you've read my recent posts, but your situation is really remarkably like mine.
Quote: But I'm really beginning to question how effective these ideas are in a 'equal' R (meaning a M rather than a R where I'm supposed to be in charge)if there's only one person who's initiating the change.
I think you are having the same problem that I've been having. Our H's exhibit immature behavior because we treat them too much like children. If we try to take a "tough" PM style stand, it is just another version of acting like "Mommy". The only change is that instead of being an "indulgent" Mom (like I used to be) or a Mom inclined to lose her temper(like you used to be?) we are being "calm and in charge" Moms. This is somewhat effective for the obvious reason that this approach works so well with children. Like you, I think there is a limit to it's effectiveness in an equal relationship between adults. The goal shouldn't be that we get better "behavior" from our H's because we do a better job "parenting" them. The goal should be to stop parenting our H's and hope that they will choose to grow up and meet us as equals.
Quote: H continues to 'pick' at me.
IMO this is exactly the equivalent of a child whining or being naughty in order to get attention. My H does this all the time. If we choose to treat our H's like children, the proper response would be to ignore the behavior and not reward it. We both know that this is the best way to handle children when they "act out" in this way. On one level, this would be an effective way to deal with this type of behavior from our Hs and it might almost seem like a "differentiated" move, but I'm starting to look at the situation differently. Would I choose to ignore this behavior if it came from any other adult who I regard as a peer? I don't think so. How would you react if a work colleague or a neighbor "picked on you" in the way that your H does? If you are like me, you would establish some "boundaries" between yourself and that colleague/neighbor post-haste.
Quote: I do lack respect for H, mainly because I feel he lacks respect for himself. H has sometimes said that he is afraid of me, and now I'm starting to think that may be true - in that he's afraid that I can really stand on my own two feet. I'm not sure whether or not he has any respect for me, because he doesn't show it.
He's afraid of you because he sees you as a figure of authority or a parental figure. He lacks respect for himself because he acts like a child. He treats you with disrespect because you treat him like a child. IMO. IMO. IMO.
Quote: Maybe I'm not diferentiated enough, but I really would need someone to be the strong one once in a while. I feel as though I do most of the housework, and caring for the kids, and I need a break from being the 'boss'. I also know that this may be an indication of how fused this R is, because I'm sure if you asked H, he would feel that the burden of responsibility falls on him.
You feel like the boss because you probably are the boss. Are you sure that your H feels like the boss too? Or is your sich really more like mine in which my H feels like a child who is being asked to take on too much responsibility. Who makes the major decisions in your household?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
)
). I've wondered sometimes if he 'withholds' sex, but I'm not sure if that's really a contious thing. I know H is nowhere near as comfortable in bed(=with himself??) as your H seems to be.
and H had gone to pick up D8 after I had picked up D6 an hr or so before. That annoyed him, but he didn't say anything. Later after I left for work, he dropped all the kids but D8, and went to pick up a wedding present for his bro. So H claims he was just looking for a new phone for him - but he made the point of only taking D8 along. H didn't want to ask me beforehand, because he knew I might disagree - or at least want to discuss it beforehand. 
