Since I had asked H to get back to me about our convo on Mon. by Fri, I knew I was going to speak to him last night; I wanted H to know I'm serious about this.
We've been reorganizing the kids' rooms all week, so H has been in 'overdrive', and our level of stress has been pretty high, but I knew H would be gone all Sat., so I waited 'till we were going downstairs to watch TV, it was pretty late, and this convo was a lot 'messier' than the last.
Me: Have you thought about what I said the other day?
H:little laugh, something along the lines of 'what do you mean'
Me: about the fact that we've ML once in the past 7.5 yrs.
H little laugh 'What's that supposed to mean, we have...(he stopped himself in mid sentance)?'
Me: Do you mean you don't agree?
H: Do we have to go back and reconstruct the history? (I know others have seen this phenomona - but is it really possible that he doesn't realize how absent ML has been???)
Then we move to the couch, H turns on the radio (we listen to the TV through the sterio speakers)
Me: I asked you to think about what I said, and asked if we could spend some time together. H starts to answer, so I turn off the speakers. H gets upset that I turned it off the 'wrong way', and tries to start an argument, I finally get him steered back to this. Then there was something about H not remembering what I said, and when I told him I wanted to spend time with him alone without the TV, there was another argument about my grammar, etc...so that I had to restate it a couple of times till I 'got it right'.
H laughs again. Then says again that he wishes I weren't so hostile. Brings up some earlier convos, about other things, and I'm not so good this time at staying out of them, so things degenerate for a while...I do get out of it that he feels I'm defensive (which is true, I do feel often that our convos are about H going on 'till I agree with his POV, but there's probably lots more than that going on, not really sure how to deal with that).
H goes on about not knowing what we can do about this, that we should first be able to talk to each other without fighting...
Me: but can we at least try just spending a little time together?
H: It seems that you don't agree with anything I say, so I've decided that the best thing to do is say nothing. It's going to take enormous amounts of energy to get anywhere, it's much easier to stay where we are.
Me: so are you saying you don't want to work on our M?
H accuses me of being hostile now, I apologize for sounding that way, but that I feel this is important. H says I'm trying to take too big a step right off, I ask if he then has a suggestion for a little step. H huffs and brings up other complains, I say I just want to make a date, or have H say that he doesn't like my idea, and come up with one of his own.
Then H starts asking if we're ever going to watch this show, I stick to this - saying that I will watch, but I want some kind of answer, and that I'm not just going to let it go, because I want him to realize that I'm serious about this.
This goes on for a while, till H realizes he's not going to get to watch TV 'till he gives me some kind of answer
H: your idea might be ok.
Me: so we can set a date? Ok, what day?
H: sighs, do we have to do that now? Me: Yes, or we're just going to 'forget'
H: I don't even know your schedule
I agree, it's true, since I just got my schedule for the fall the other day, I promised to check it and get back to him. I will set a date before H leaves this afternoon.
H did lean over before I fell asleep and say 'Goodnight sweetie'. I acepted it, because he could very easily just continued in his upset mode, but it really did feel like he was tucking his daughter into bed. I wish H could see me as an adult!!
I have no expectations for our 'date' - actually I expect it will be something along the lines of us sitting in a room for a few minutes with H asking if 'this is enough, I have things to do', or if I get him to agree to a walk, he'll spend the whole time asking if it was long enough yet.
I'd really appreciate any comments, ideas for the 'date', etc. This ain't gonna be about sex for a looooooonggggggg time, folks, so if you think I'd be better off somewhere else, let me know?
The convo you had with your H is sickeningly familiar to me. Your H is probably like my H in that he thinks of himself as being a "nice, sensitive" guy. Therefore, if you aren't happy with him, you are just too demanding. Don't you know how lucky you are to be with a man who represses his aggressive tendencies and his sex drive!
IMO you haven't put enough "pressure" on him yet. He's just barely acknowledging that you have a point and he's definitely trying to set the pace for you. It's not up to him to decide what you want or deserve in terms of a sex life. His only decision to make is whether he thinks saving your marriage is worth dealing with his sexual inadequacy. I would definitely take it up a notch or two if you feel differentiated enough to do it and not fall apart.
Quote: This ain't gonna be about sex for a looooooonggggggg time, folks, so if you think I'd be better off somewhere else, let me know?
Don't let him set the pace! This can be about sex tomorrow if you are differentiated enough. Since you are obviously considering leaving him, why not make a bold move to try and fix things? You could at least tell him "I understand that in your opinion it's going to take a long time and a lot of work before you are willing to have sex with me. I find that somewhat ridiculous since I could go out to (Finnish equivalent of singles bar) and have sex tonight if that is what I wanted. If an absolute stranger would want to have sex with me, why doesn't the man who claims to love me?".
My new theory about LDHs (take with a grain of salt because I have PMS today ) is that many of them are actually way more sexually kinky than any HD. Unlike many LDWs, they actually have sex drives. The reason they can't express their sex drives is that they are emotional masochists. They are so uptight they can't feel passion unless their emotions are freed through the experience of emotional pain. It is the mental/emotional equivalent of someone whose physical "kink" is that they can only get aroused through physical pain. Thus, I get laid when I make my H jealous and HP gets laid when she expresses her anger. If you are like me, I'm sure you'd be thrilled at the simple pleasure of someone wanting to have sex with you just because you are a nice woman with attractive "nouns".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Boy, you really held onto yourself in a BIG way. I'm proud of you .
Your H is a big time foot dragger. He used every trick in the book to throw you off track. Correcting your grammer? I'm assuming you were speaking English, too. But, believe it or not, I think you saw signs of incremental, but positive, movement on his part.
Mojo is advocating that you drop the sex bomb on him. MM, I haven't tried this yet. If I did, my W might say "Go ahead and try to pick someone up" with the full knowledge that my odds of success were slim to none. After all, someone once said I looked like Danny Devito. You, Heapmom, have more success with this approach than I would. You might not feel comfortable with this approach, though.
Whenever he commits any kind of warmth for you and the kids, you might want to look for opportunities to compliment him, even though his actions seem like such small measures on his part, and you are still light years away from where you want to be. Believe it or not, his saying 'Goodnight sweetie' to you might have been a huge step for him. If you give him some positive reinforcement, then he knows that changes that he makes will actually make things better for him.
Congratulation, and I salute your enormous act of courage in the face of your anchor of a husband.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
If this is "all about sex" and not about other parts of your M, then it makes sense to focus on ML with your H as "The Issue" that needs to be addressed first. Seeing as this message thread is under the SSM section on DB.com, that fits. However, if (like me) you have a "Love-Starved Marriage" or "Communication-Starved Marriage" then things get a bit more difficult.
You have a difficult message to convey to your H, and he has already shown his unwillingness to talk about it. To me, this means that you have to anticipate his reactions, realize that he will deflect your attention to other matters, and make him see that you won't give up on what you need to say to him. You have started doing that, and that's great! Now you have to follow through and "keep your promises" about setting a date and having a plan for that date.
Good luck with things... and if you have a chance, see PM pages 134-135 (Chapter 5, subheading "What Is Human Sexual Desire?") for a short discussion on cultural issues in sexual desire. The blurb about the Irish folks having sex without removing their clothes was "interesting."
Quote: The convo you had with your H is sickeningly familiar to me. Your H is probably like my H in that he thinks of himself as being a "nice, sensitive" guy. Therefore, if you aren't happy with him, you are just too demanding. Don't you know how lucky you are to be with a man who represses his aggressive tendencies and his sex drive!
Yes, that sounds just like my H!! I suspect your theory about 'emotional machochism' has a grain of truth in it too. I'm not sure about the passion part though, since I haven't seen anything remotely resembling it coming from my H in a looonggg time. As I said, his 'passions' have started more resembling 'obsessions' - a perfectionist drive that makes him an asset to the 'causes' he works for, but make him very difficult to live with.
About him setting the pace...thank you for that. I was a little confused about his complaint that I am 'hostile' in our convos, and I know while at times it's just me stating my opinion, I can get defensive as well, so this was a 'sore point' that he could push and get to me with. I do see now that most of our convos have been 'fused' - with each of us having a completely different idea of what's going on - me feeling like I'm having my opinions stifled, H feeling like I'm attacking him.
I'm not sure I have the guts yet to pull the 'singles bar' move. Actually, it may not have so much to do with guts, as that I need to figure out how to adjust it to my sitch - H knows all too well that I would NOT go into a local bar to pick someone up...guess I'm a little picky, even in this desperate state!
Quote: If this is "all about sex" and not about other parts of your M, then it makes sense to focus on ML with your H as "The Issue" that needs to be addressed first. Seeing as this message thread is under the SSM section on DB.com, that fits. However, if (like me) you have a "Love-Starved Marriage" or "Communication-Starved Marriage" then things get a bit more difficult.
Chris,
Ours is a 'starved' marriage, in any sense of the word. I have pulled myself away from H emotionally, and H has backed way off too - as he said in the convo the other night (not the first time) he feels it's much easier not to say anything than try and work things out.
But I see it as sort of a big tangle of string, and it doesn't really matter where we start, as long as we start somewhere. I would use the analogy of starting to practice a real new piece of music, with all kinds of strange effects and strange notation - at first sight it seems completely overwhelming, and even a trained musician isn't really sure where to start. But usually just starting, anywhere 'breaks the ice', and before too long you start finding the patterns and unraveling what the composer had in mind.
I do realize that I have to stick to whatever I say or do. I know that's been the problem in the past, that I backed down too easily, or didn't even bother trying since I knew the amount of work involved. Now that I realize that's just as much of the problem as his part, it's easier for me to 'dig in'. I don't have anything to loose. I really feel that I'm in this for me, and no matter what the outcome, I'm going to end up stronger.
Today I had made plans to meet a GF to go for a walk. When I got back, no one was home, H had taken the kids out for a walk!! Later H got the kids to help him fold laundry, and helped get the boys ready for bed(!!!). And yes, SM, I did make a BIG point of thanking him.
The 'real' test though, will be if H can keep this up after he goes back to work, and as it gets dark...(he's very SAD, though just about everyone here is, including me, to some extent, and this year's going to be VERY bad,since we haven't had much sun this summer ) Or actually, the test will be if *I* can keep this up In all honesty, I don't find my H overy attractive right now, though I'm trying, and not giving up. There is still a part of me fighting inside, not wanting this to work. I just keep telling her to wait around a while to see what happens . I'm pretty sure that if H used the line that IHJ's H used, that would change real quick!!
Oh, by the way, I am using the color code in my posts...I just figured black was a pretty good color for once in more than 2700 days...you can guarentee that if that ever changes, my whole post will be red!!!
H has been in a 'nervous' mood all week, typical for his last week before going back to work, but I couldn't help thinking he was trying to push me away so I wouldn't keep the date.
On my way home from work the night of our date, D8 called me - on her new cell phone. (this is Nokia country - she was one of 2 kids in her 3rd grade class that didn't have one).
H+I had briefly discussed this about a year ago, and I did agree that when D8 started taking the bus (public trans. no school busses here) that it would be a good idea. But I was still upset since H had done this without consulting me. I decided I needed to confront H on this, and that if he got too upset, we could 'postpone' the date 'till the next night.
My confronting him degenerated into a real fused convo, but to H's credit, he allowed it to calm down, and he said he did want to keep the 'date'. H also admitted that he had been very nervous all week about what I was expecting.
I told him had no real 'expectations' for the date, though I did want to just spend time with him, even just sitting together, without any outside interuptions or conflicts.
H apparently felt differently, and used this opportunity to tell me again what he doesn't like about our convo style, how he wished we could talk together like friends of ours, etc. etc.
We ended up having a long convo, and did get some things out in the open. Finally he did agree to just sit on the couch for a while - we listened to one of our favorite CD's, and ended up in a convo about the difference in quality between playback on the CD player and the DVD player (there definately was a BIG difference ).
As we were getting comfortable (in a friendly way), I asked him what it would take for him to consider having sex with me (I really didn't even want anything to happen, just wanted to know his answer). H said 'is that what this is about?' When I assured him I didn't have any 'ulterior' motives, he did say that if I were more positive, that might help. He seems to need my positive energy to prop himself up.
We sat for a while, then went to bed. Or I did, he stayed up for a while. I guess I really let him run the evening, but in a way, that was my intention - to 'feel him out' a little. I'm just not sure what to do with the info, and things have been pretty tense around here today
It's pathetic how similar your situation is to mine. The only real difference is you are someone who loses her temper when upset and I am someone who either puts on a fake smile or cries when pushed to the brink. Also, my H would never even go to the trouble of buying a phone for my daughter. She would remain forever phoneless until it got to the top of my TO DO list. Do you sometimes feel like your H sucks all the energy out of you? Do you think you would find it kind of relaxing if he traveled a lot like my H does now?
Quote: He seems to need my positive energy to prop himself up.
Exactly. But who props you up when you need some support? You can differentiate until the cows come home, but you're still going to NEED a hug every once in a while.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Ya-ya Wonder Woman wrote: You can differentiate until the cows come home, but you're still going to NEED a hug every once in a while. ---------------------------
You meant "hug" to be a representative word, didn't you?
Mike - whose M ideal is "Whenever either of us feels sad, let's f***. Whenever we feel angry, let's f***. Whenever we disagree, let's f***. Whenever we feel happy, let's f***. And when we're not sure how we feel, let's f***."
Quote: You meant "hug" to be a representative word, didn't you?
Mike - whose M ideal is "Whenever either of us feels sad, let's f***. Whenever we feel angry, let's f***. Whenever we disagree, let's f***. Whenever we feel happy, let's f***. And when we're not sure how we feel, let's f***."
In my ideal marriage hugs and f*cks would both be in plentiful supply. I hope you aren't implying that you are LD about hugs. Maybe you've just had too many hugs that didn't lead to anything good. Now you are afraid if you open up a can of hug the snakes will pop out and there won't be any peanuts.
Wow. I think that was my lamest analogy yet.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
) is that many of them are actually way more sexually kinky than any HD. Unlike many LDWs, they actually have sex drives. The reason they can't express their sex drives is that they are emotional masochists. They are so uptight they can't feel passion unless their emotions are freed through the experience of emotional pain. It is the mental/emotional equivalent of someone whose physical "kink" is that they can only get aroused through physical pain. Thus, I get laid when I make my H jealous and HP gets laid when she expresses her anger. If you are like me, I'm sure you'd be thrilled at the simple pleasure of someone wanting to have sex with you just because you are a nice woman with attractive "nouns". 
.
Now you have to follow through and "keep your promises" about setting a date and having a plan for that date.
) Or actually, the test will be if *I* can keep this up 
In all honesty, I don't find my H overy attractive right now, though I'm trying, and not giving up. There is still a part of me fighting inside, not wanting this to work. I just keep telling her to wait around a while to see what happens