What about the way you are? Why does your wife get to insist that you be what you are not, so that she gets to be what she is? Is this not the ultimate contradiction?
I don't think your solution would work for me. You see, I have been arguing with my wife, that I want way more than sex. I want closeness, intimacy, I want to be in her soul, not just her vagina.
If I argue that she should not care about me having an affair because she doesn't care about sex, I would be undermining my own position over the meaning of sex to me. I would be justifying her suspicion that all I am doing is looking to get my rocks off.
She and I both know that if had an affair, it would probably not be a one night stand, and that I would be playing for keeps. Unlike other men I know, I have never been capable of casual sex.
Of course, I cannot speak for you. You seem to get the most milage out of your H by acting like the dissatisfied customer, and he is the eager supplier: you are Ford and he is Visteon. Your attitude is that you like his product, but if he can't supply on time, you will just shop the business around. After all, parts are a commodity. It's unfortunate for the both of you that he can't just give for the joy of giving.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
Quote: I agree with barney. We're not here just because we're HD - in fact, some of aren't HD. We're here because we're "fixers". If my W was HD and I was LD, you can bet your boots that, were I aware it was a problem for her, I would do my dead level best to fix it. Look at the hoops we have already jumped through trying to get our spouses to ML. We have clearly shown that we're willing to sacrifice and work on problems in our M.
Wildebube
Are you sure? For years my wife tried to get me more involved with the kids till she was blue in the face, and I did a lot of foot dragging. It took a while for me to come around to her way of thinking and to start being a more active parent.
The Fundamental Nature of the High Desire Spouse is to lead the way, to beg, plead, push, and cajole. The Fundamental Nature of the Low Desire Spouse is to drag his heels, to be contrary, and defensive.
The number of LD spouses on this board can be counted on the fingers of one hand of an old press operator. Excluding those LD spouses that are spying on their HD spouses, Barney.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
Quote: I have been reading the posts on this board for some time and I am trying to figure out if a HD spouse can really love a ND Spouse - particularly a ND spouse that firmly believes that it is perfectly acceptable to be ND. Where the HD spouse should merely accept the LD for what they are - ie leave them alone physically and carry on with a normal loving, caring and fully sharing relationship in every other way. I have been given this strong message from my ND spouse and she is totally resentful that I would want her to be anything other than what she is - just accept and be happy. Is this really possible and if so how do you get to that happy place?
Monk
Here is something ironic in my own feelings. For years I tolerated no sex in my marriage, but I was pissed at my wife for not loving me. Since I have taken a stand recently, I find that I love my wife much more. And I know she loves me too. We are just really crappy at loving each other in ways that are meaningful to each other. I love my wife, we don't have sex, and I won't accept not having sex. If this seems contradictory, well, it feels OK for me right now.
At some point our marriage is going to improve or it won't. At some point, if the marriage doesn't improve, I will have to choose acceptance or divorce. Acceptance is not tolerance.
I've seen tons of men who are in their 50's and are just bitter and defeated. They are walking casualties of life. Most of these guys point to their job frustrations and complain about their employers or the stupid unqualified jerks that got promoted over them. Now I wonder how many of them are bitter about their home lives as well.
When I met my father-in-law, he was just this type of man. He was impossible to talk to, he was taciturn, he was ornery, and he was unhealthy. He didn't just have frustrated career ambitions, but it was obvious that he had a NS marriage because of the separate sleeping arrangement he had had with his wife for years. Considering his interest in erotic literature, it was obvious he wasn't happy with his NS marriage, either. After some years, though, I could see him let go of the anger and gain a level of acceptance. And he actually recovered from heart failure to live another 25 years.
So I have a role model of acceptance. I also have my own father to look at, who tolerated his condition, but has never accepted it. Which is one more reason why I am here on this bored.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
Some women lose their sex drive for a host of reasons. The question really should be "Is she doing everything humanely possible to alleviate the situation". This would be the best way to see her commitment to you. She should know what YOU want, and then she should be willing to work as hard as possible to overcome her problems. THIS is the true sign of love. If she dismisses our needs, then that says it all, does it not?
She doesn't believe she has a problem. Maybe she doesn't. He wants sex, she doesn't. LD spouse controls the sex life. As always.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
Quote: This is irrational gibberish. Perhaps the Son of Sam was a nice guy relative to Hitler, but that doesn't mean that he was a nice guy. "Normal" isn't an adjective that is applied subjectively. It has a clear cut meaning. Perhaps there is some margin of error in determining what a normal sex drive for an adult woman might be, but that doesn't mean that wanting sex twice a year is anywhere near the peak of the normal curve. Your wife is way down in the valley, multiple standard deviations away from the norm. I don't see what any one of us on this board gains by buying into postmodern relativism when it comes to our sex lives, except perhaps the comforting feeling that we are too "nice" to call a spade a spade.
I am assuming you did a chi squared fit test on the sexual desire distribution curve to see that it did, in fact, fit a binomial distribution.
No?
Maybe sex drive is a binodal distribution. There are lots of people who want it every day, but there are also lots of people who want it less than once a month. If you perform an arithmetic mean, you will get an average sex drive of 2x/wk.
I am under the impression that their are quite a few HD/LD couples in the world. HD people are normal. LD people are normal too.
Casting low desire as a pathology is another trap, IMHO. It allows the LD spouse to claim physiological disability, and removes choice as a consideration.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
Quote: I am under the impression that their are quite a few HD/LD couples in the world. HD people are normal. LD people are normal too.
Since the probability of a husband and wife having exactly the same sex drive(if it could be perfectly quantified) would be very small, I will grant that most couples are HD/LD. I read somewhere that the average woman claims to want sex once a week and the average man claims to want sex 3x a week. Therefore, in some crude sense sex drive might be considered a binodal distribution, or more accurately it might look like a binodal distribution if you were to overlay the normal curve of female desire on the normal curve of male desire. However, it is also widely reported that the average sexual frequency of married couples is 2x a week, which leads me to believe that in many if not most marriages, some reasonable compromise has been achieved. The conventional wisdom is that most men have a sex drive somewhat, but not unreasonably higher than that of their wives. Though there is good reason to question the reliability of data gathered to measure sex drive, the statistics are a good match with the conventional wisdom on the subject and therefore I am inclined to accept them as largely accurate. However, I am willing to concede that perhaps the function of female desire has a weak binodal distribution itself. There does seem to be evidence that women are more likely to be pretty much hot or pretty much cold. Even though I have a LDH, I don't believe this to be the case with men. Both HP and I have conceded that in another relationship our H's might be a good match or even the HD partner. Though he wasn't having sex with me, my H probably was masturbating enough to put his purely physical desire maybe just a standard deviation away from the norm and it wasn't like he would go forever without approaching me, it just took so long and was so unreliable it made me crazy.
Quote: Casting low desire as a pathology is another trap, IMHO. It allows the LD spouse to claim physiological disability, and removes choice as a consideration.
Just because something is "abnormal" doesn't make it a pathology. Even if it is a pathology, that doesn't mean that it is a pathology with no cure. For instance, both you and I have recently been successful in losing some weight. As I'm sure you know the odds of successfully losing weight and keeping it off over time are pretty slim. Still it can be done and some people manage to do it, even people for whom their genetic makeup and habits of a lifetime make this a difficult task. Being overweight is a pathology, but it is one that can be overcome. I think it is possible that extreme LD might be a similar condition to morbid obesity, partially genetic, partially due to life history and partially due to the stresses and emotional character of someone's current life situation. As long as the morbidly obese person is able to look him/herself in the mirror and tell themselves "I'm just pleasantly plump" or "I was born to be fat. There is nothing I can do." weight loss will not occur. IMO following the PM method is the equivalent of consistently and lovingly tellingly your morbidly obese spouse "You are morbidly obese and I am not happy being married to someone who is morbidly obese, because I would like to be able to engage in physical activities with my spouse and I would like to have a spouse who cares enough to want to appeal to me physically. I can not believe that you are happy with the current situation yourself and I truly believe you could lose some weight if you care about yourself and our relationship. I will do everything possible to support your efforts, but I will no longer stand by and encourage this behavior with my silence or denial."
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
In response to your observations, I am on the verge of becoming one of those bitter 50 year old men you referred to. In my case, I have a highly successful career, great kids, great friends, excellent health but the prospect of a sexless marriage until I pass on in another 50 years.
The other day my wife explained to me that when we ML now(two or three times a year), she grits her teeth, closes her eyes and counts the number of thrust - hopng it will all be over quickly. I am totally conflicted at this point since the act of ML for her is on the same level as having a root canal. Why would anyone have any pleasure ML to someone who really detested the act? On the other hand, I can not help my need for some kind of sex life and having my touch needs met. My wife suggests that I fly solo in the sex department, but this is extremely unsatisfying at age 50. But what about touch needs - this remains unclear.
Solid Mechanic, in response to your observation it is hard not to turn bitter at the situation - I know my wife does love me and that she can not help her inability to have any desire.
The question is, can I truly love my wife if an important part of my happiness equation, which I feel I can only have with a wife or committed partner, is missing? Can I change my happiness equation so that the sex/touching part of the equation is less important? I am struggling with how to accomplish this and not become totally bitter.
Quote: For instance, both you and I have recently been successful in losing some weight. As I'm sure you know the odds of successfully losing weight and keeping it off over time are pretty slim.
Pun intended? This is a good comparison, although LD spouses will have a hard time relating to it because obesity is a matter of life and death, whereas sex is not. This is why we sometimes don't get any movement unless we cast low sex drive as a matter of life or death for the marriage.
Quote: "You are morbidly obese and I am not happy being married to someone who is morbidly obese, because I would like to be able to engage in physical activities with my spouse and I would like to have a spouse who cares enough to want to appeal to me physically. I can not believe that you are happy with the current situation yourself and I truly believe you could lose some weight if you care about yourself and our relationship. I will do everything possible to support your efforts, but I will no longer stand by and encourage this behavior with my silence or denial."
This is really the PM mantra for the HD spouse, isn't it? Just replace "obesity" for "not enough sex" or whatever behavior you can no longer live with. It is our manifesto.
FWIW, if you had been married to someone like me, you might have never lost the weight. Some good can result from the pain.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
