I realized after posting this on Julies page that I hsould start my own post to avoid hijacking hers...here goes.
Yesterday I had a very enlightening conversation with my LDH's counselor. The C game me advice that parallels some suggestions I've seen on this board as well. The conversation that led up to the advice (a background for you) had to do with the fact that my H is ultimately in control of whether we ML...I can request it, I can initiate it...but ultimately it's up to him if he participates...or I'm off to my own devices.
My H's counselor suggested that perhaps he is withholding the physical/emotional part of himself (possibly unintentionally) because he knows (I've expressed this time and time again) that this is something I require in our marriage, it's part of my "ideal" of marriage if you will. So basically he's in control of whether I receive what I require from him itemotionally/phsyically as my husband...a control issue. The counselor asked me to turn the tables and think about what I'm in control of (in my h's mind not my own mind...which really took some thinking on my part) that perhaps I may not be fullfilling in his eyes in my role as his wife (ideal wife or not)...keep in mind I'm having to guess at what this may be...my husband wouldn't tell me...I know, I've asked before. Anyway...the only thing I could possibly think of is to keep the house cleaner and the laundry done (not an easy task with a one year old at home and working full time to boot!).
Now my H's counselor was trying to keep confidentiality so he couldn't tell me directly the things my H had brought up specifically but he did elude to the fact that my H had brought up a similar issue with me on this front before (although he's never voiced anything to me directly, anytime I've asked he tells me everything's hunky dory). It's very possible my H doesn't think I'm meeting his needs in some ways as a wife because I'm not meeting his expectations in the household area (no matter how ridiculous those expectations may seem to me, they are still his expectations...even if he won't communicate them to me.)
Now don't get me wrong here...our house isn't a pig pen or anything near that...but it does get cluttered. His C suggested I make an extra effort to keep the dishes constantly done, the house picked up, dusted, laundry to a minimum, do the dishes he leaves behind etc. I'm sitting there thinking...Oh Great! More work for me and he's off the hook again! In my mind I'm thinking...he's a grown man, he can pick up after himself...I've got enough to do!!! Natural reaction right? Of course! His C assured me though that over time he will probably become more willing to pitch in and help as he sees me doing this on a regular basis. At least I would have the "power" (as his C put it) to ask him to do simple things (i.e. put his dishes in the dishwasher instead of piling them up...stuff like that)...to make life easier for me.
Here's the deal though...once I stopped fuming over the extra work for me, I realized the C may be right. So I used the frustration to get me going while I cleaned the house...making it look great...even with my little "Bugger Butt" (my son) toddling around trying to hang on to me. I did manage to get everything but the laundry done and was exhausted by the time I fell into bed around 11:30pm....my husband arrived home around midnight (he's working the afternoon shift right now) so I was asleep when he got home from work.
This morning he was in a great mood, he even got out of bed while I was getting ready (this is normally when he's sleeping/snoring the hardest) and mentioned (without prompting) how great the house looked....he was in a very good mood and if I hadn't had to get to work I think we may have fooled around a bit. On top of that he told me that if I would separate the laundry the way I like that he'd make sure he got a load in before he left for work...is this a possible give and take going on?
Could it really be that simple? Could it really be that there is something menial I'm not doing that he perhaps subconciously views as my duty and because I'm not doing these things he thinks I'm not meeting his needs and therefore withholds from me? I'm not sure yet, the jury's still out on this...but I'm going to suck it up and do a lot of the household stuff I think he should be able to do for himself and see if it makes a difference. If it does, it's worth it...perhaps he just doesn't feel taken care of. He may be one of those people who needs to have things like this done for him to feel taken care of...whereas I need his emotional support and physical affection.
Perhaps that is the key.
If this approach is successful for me I'll definitely let you all know. Ok...I'm ready guys...let me have it...tell me how screwed up I am now LOL. I'm a big girl, I can take it!
All I can say is Good Luck. I bust my butt keeping the house clean, making dinners, etc., for my W so that all she needs to do when she gets home is change into her pajamas. Guess what she does? She changes into her pajamas, plants herself in front of the tv, and ignores me. No compliments, not even any acknowledgment that I've done anything. And she can still use all the excuses she's always used: too stressed, too tired, too angry at me, etc.
The answer for me was NOT to outdo myself on cleaning, etc. It might be the answer for you, as they say: your mileage may vary. I'm still looking for the answer to my sitch. I think it is to just continue to be direct. One day she will hear me. And yes, I've tried the 180 before of not putting any pressure on her. It just makes her happy, and the idea of sex still never comes into her head. At least I'm not nagging her. But then, after a month or two of no pressure, and I ask her, she says I am ALWAYS pressuring her, even when I am NOT pressuring her, because she KNOWS I'm THINKING about sex.
Sorry...venting here. Hope your cleaning tactic works, GEL.
I sympathize with your sitch too...and believe me I know it's going to be work for me to do all of this around the house...and I was really resentful at first that I was going to have to try this. But in my mind...it's worth a try. I guess the reason I'm willing to give this a shot is that it is possible that he feels I'm not meeting his needs. I thought I was doing everything ok, but if this is the area that popped into my mind where I may not be up to par and he had brought it up to his C as well....there may be something to it. It's worth a shot anyway. If it doesn't give me results...then it's back to the drawing board. I've tried doing as you've said and not outdo myself...but with him that so doesn't work! In fact he just adds, and adds to it.
I know I may be lambasted for trying this approach by many people...but if it works and I'm able to identify where I'm not meeting his needs/expectations then I feel I'll be making some progress. As I said...this morning he commented on what I had done...and I didn't say a word to him about it to obtain the praise...it's been quite some time since he woke up in such a nice mood.
GEL said: --------------- I know I may be lambasted for trying this approach by many people...but if it works and I'm able to identify where I'm not meeting his needs/expectations then I feel I'll be making some progress. ---------------
You go girl!
Whether or not it results in success, it will increase your chances. What you are doing is sending hubby a clear message. "There's some big changes headed this way buster. You'd better hitch up your wagon an get on the trail, cause change is a coming!"
It may be non-verbal communication, but communication it is, and communication is what it takes to start solving the issues.
Hang in there! -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I answered in my thread, but let me chime in here as well. Give and take is the key, but I think its crucial you still talk to him to find out exactly what his needs are. You could certainly keep up the good work in the meantime. I hope this does the trick, or atleast is the key to further communication for you.
Oh believe me I've tried talking...the problem is this with him....he won't talk...and it's not so much that he simply refuses to talk to me, it's more that we're (he, his counselor, and myself) going through a process of trying to find out what's causing his communication difficulties. He's got a barrier of some type that simply doesn't allow him to confront me on issues. You see...my H in the past has been very mentally abused...so he's at a point now where he's having to learn how to stand up for himself again. I agree...communication is a key, but when you think about it at times actions can speak louder than words....although I prefer words
I think this may work for you in the same way that losing weight worked for me. Even though your H hasn't said that he doesn't want to sleep with you because you don't clean house, this may be what he's telling himself as a way to rationalize his behavior. He will be happy because you did something to please him and he will no longer be able to use it as an excuse to avoid meeting your needs.(It's kind of interesting that the word "slut" also means slovenly woman. . Please take this kindly, as it is coming from a woman who just bribed her children to do the housework with Ben & Jerry's)
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: Even though your H hasn't said that he doesn't want to sleep with you because you don't clean house, this may be what he's telling himself as a way to rationalize his behavior.
That's exactly what I'm beginning to realize myself :-)
Quote: (It's kind of interesting that the word "slut" also means slovenly woman.
That is kind of interesting isn't it? The thing that irked me when his C told me that I would need to make more of an effort in the cleaning area is that I thought I already was...I just need to redouble the effort :-) & Don't worry, I don't take your "slut" comment in a bad way. There's something I like to say to my hubby every now and then that makes him laugh...and I think I'm going to embroider it on a pillow LOL.
"A woman knows when to be a lady, when to be a girl, and when to be a whore....and the appropriate situation for each." Just something I made up a long, long, looong time ago LOL.
Hi Greenie! My H likes a clean house too. I too resisted it for a looong time. Now? Who cares, I say. So we have a 1950's thing going on where I run around the house before he gets home and straighten up...who really gives a crud? It works for us. And once I realized that he likes clean counters, dishes done, no clutter and toys on the floor, it made it a lot easier. I think at first I was picturing myself mopping and scrubbing toilets every day and just thought, On top of everything else I do???
But it was a basic straightening up that he wanted and it really IS easy. It takes me less than a half hour to get everything done and when he walks in, he has described it as feeling a peaceful and serene feeling as opposed to a chaotic feeling. Not that he was expected to clean it up when he got home...it just looked chaotic to him and that was his initial impression upon entering our home. In other words, the clutter and crud gave him the heebie jeebies. So I clean it up and he really is a happier person. Plus I am speaking his love language, blah blah. He is an ex-Marine so no doubt the spic and span-ness of that organization has carried over into his personal life.
Whatever. It truly is such a small thing that I don't mind doing it.
Here is the thing though: I do it because I WANT him to have that peaceful feeling. There is no ulterior motive on my part...I do not expect sex in return..I do not feel bitter if he doesn't ante up the sex in return for a clean house. I do it because my own sense of integrity calls me forward to meet his needs, regardless of what he is doing. I want to be a good wife and it is not contingent on him being a good husband. Kwim?
So try not to set up expectations in your head of "hey if I do this, he will feel loved and respected and want to meet MY needs". Maybe he will, maybe he won't. The idea is to do something that makes him feel loved, regardless.
This was a hard concept for me to wrap my mind around for a very long time. There is still one HUGE love language of his that I can't bring myself to do regularly (stubborn!!) and I honestly don't know what my holdup is. Pride, fear, disinterest, laziness, sadism..a combination of all of these probably. I am working on it, though, and just today made a pact with myself to JUST DO IT.
Anyway, just wanted to chime in and wish you luck and tell you that it is doable, even with little ones, and you can do it girl!
You are voicing almost verbatim a conversation I had with myself last night. Once I stopped fuming about the fact that I thought I was going to have to do soo much extra work...it dawned on me that I was guilty of not meeting one of his needs...unknowingly so, but guilty of it regardless. I'm making the effort because I love him and I want to meet his needs...not because I think if I do this, then he'll do that. The most I'm actually hoping for, now that I have this little piece of what I consider to be important information is that it may start the ball rolling for change...which it will, whether he changes or not..I will.
I think the thing that wears on my nerves the most isn't really the fact that I need to take on the "typical" female roles in the marriage...cooking, cleaning, child care etc., I'm ok with that. It's really the fact that he couldn't/wouldn't simply tell me that's what he'd like...but as I've mentioned before it's possible he didn't realize that himself...and verbal communication is one of the things he's trying to work on.
Anyway...I'm with you girlie...whatever it takes!
Hmmm...does that mean I have to wear pearls and heels when I'm cleaning ?
. Please take this kindly, as it is coming from a woman who just bribed her children to do the housework with Ben & Jerry's)