Dave, This is so cool! Remember a couple weeks ago when I was pestering you about the EC issue? Well, I knew that something just didn't sound right but I couldn't nail it down...
I totally didn't need to cause you are right there. You've got it exactly. I hope all goes well with you and the EC experiment. Best of luck; I know this is hard for you so this will really be an opportunity for growth.
As far as your W goes, I thought of one more thing that you might want to consider. She knows now that the schedule is a thing of the past (and I'm sure you're both glad!) but I was wondering if there is a need to put anything in its place? That is, are you going to be disappointed when nothing happens? If so, then why wait for that moment to force the PM talk and just get it out in the open now?
Something like: "I am hopeful that, without the schedule, we can strive for a couple nights a week like last Thurs, where it was mutually initiated and mutually enjoyed. What are your thoughts about what you would like to strive for?"
I think that having SOME kind of goal is a good idea, even if it is not written in stone and 'rigid'. Here's why: My H would have felt majorly set up if I had said Let's ditch the schedule but assumed that he would replace it with something enjoyable without explicitly stating what that was. I don't know if your W is this way or not; I am just tellin ya what would have happened in my home. Of course, there is no way I could sustain an EC in the absence of sex. A week...sure. Any longer than that and I just can't do it. I don't feel connected, I am NOT connected after all, so why should I force it or try to strive for that? I don't look at his form of EC and put 'rules' on it as far as what he should or should not be feeling and I will not do that to myself either. I will be reasonable of course, but there will come a time that he will end up with a disconnected and not-so-nice wife if he chooses to reject sex with me for a long period of time.
Anyway, I just wanted to say that you sound so awesome lately and I want to extend my best congrats to you.
Honey
P.S. Hairdog, LOLOLOLOL. Oh man I needed a good laugh this morning sooooooo bad.
I was wondering if there is a need to put anything in its place? That is, are you going to be disappointed when nothing happens?
"I am hopeful that, without the schedule, we can strive for a couple nights a week like last Thurs, where it was mutually initiated and mutually enjoyed. What are your thoughts about what you would like to strive for?"
Honey,
A few things...
1. I'm certain that she *knows* what I want (poor girl).
2. I wouldn't characterize this as an experiment...it feels more like another step in the evolution.
3. I'm sure I'll be disappointed but that's exactly what this effort is about. I've rarely been "single" and when I was, I was pretty desperate to find someone. I feel like my compulsions within this marriage are driven by the same issue. I need to get a grip on this and having the "security" of a "plan" will only prolong my ability to address this. The difference *now* is that I've learned to introspect and view myself with empathy and understanding rather than spite. ie. I can handle my own "reality" better.
Schnarch's metaphor that shows each person in a separate boat is great. He even personalized it with his stories about his hiking trips with his W. As convoluted as my mind works, it took a day on the trail with my D6 for me to really "get it"...that I've traditionally been a very "controlling" person which makes life suck for people around me. So the other day before our ride, I could have sat down with my D6 and showed her a map, and indicated where we need be at various times etc. but real joy (for both of us) came from me letting her "explore" and lead the way without having any expectations. I would have NEVER planned to go as far as we did. I expected tears and tiredness within a mile...not smiles and laughs 6 miles and 2 hours later in the stifling, sticky heat of the deep south. We went at her pace and I happily helped when she asked. At some points, I did encourage her to try but didn't "push" it if she didn't want to. The goal wasn't performance...it was to keep a smile on her face. Is there a way I can apply this to my marriage as if the marriage is a "trail ride"? Or do I need to look at sex as a "trail ride"? Once my W shows up, I'm pleased with how she "rides" (oh brother). So really, I need to look at the marriage itself as a "ride". I don't have to continually watch my W, I just need to occasionally check that she is still around and not lost.
BTW.
Yesterday, my W went with me and D6 to the same trails. While I was pushing D6 up a rooty section, my W passed us. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw her negotiate a very tough section that's hard for me (this was my W's 2nd time on a trail...I've been riding and racing for 10 years). In the spirit of my big annoying metaphors, I will say that it's completely possible that I'm not as good as I *think* I am and she might not be as bad as I think she is.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
I've been meaning to write back about this post regarding your daughter. I, too, have a 6 year old daughter. We're not riding trails though. My beatiful, graceful, reasonably athletic daughter is currently learning to ride without training wheels. I run down the sidewalk by my daughter's side holding one handle of the handle bar and the rack over the rear wheel. First I let go of the handle bar, then, while still running by her side as she peddles, I let go of the rack. She goes about 10 to 20 feet, then puts her two feet out and stops herself because she is afraid of falling. We have been doing this off and on for about a month, now. Two weeks ago I got angry with her because, altough she is physically able to ride, she stops herself out of fear.
After that my wife would go out with her for bike rides. I felt terrible about how I treated her. Saturday afternoon I apologized to her and promised her that I wouldn't get mad at her and that it was OK to be afraid. I went riding with her and she went a little farther than before. Tonight (Monday) after work I asked her if she wanted to ride her bike. She said no, so we went outside and squirted each other with squirt guns instead. Who cares if she rides her bike, anyway?
Dave, you taught me that I'm just as fused with my kids as I am with my wife, and probably my parents as well. Do you know what my initial gut reaction was to your post? Jealousy. How utterly creepy is that? I have not yet totally alienated my poor kid like I have alienated my poor wife. Maybe I can still turn things around.
Dave, I guess you are a lot more differentiated than I am. I guess that is why you are taking your wife off of a schedule, while I am hoping and praying that I can get on any kind of schedule with my wife.
Thanks, Dave
Tony
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
Don't feel too bad. I'm going to share something with you (and the rest of the folks) that will make everyone cringe. It makes me sick to think about this but it also serves as a reminder of where I came from because I started making personal changes 2 years ago after this incident.
The day I bought my D6 her first little bike when she was 4, I made a big deal about taking her to a paved trail by the river. But to get to the scenic area, she would have to ride about 200 yards on smooth, flat surface...easy right? 25 yards in, she stopped and said she didn't want do it anymore. I freaked but kept calm. I was so disappointed, that I took her back to the car and didn't speak to her on the drive home. She could tell I was tense but I did everything in my power to not get angry with her for not trying. When I walked in the door, and she was out of earshot, I blasted my W for her contribution to my daughter's "I don't want to try" gene and summarily made examples of my W's lazy relatives. I've only said really nasty things like this to my W 2 other times in our entire marriage. These were the closest thing to fighting we've ever engaged in throughout our entire R. And ironically they got to the heart (with a shotgun blast) of the issues that I'm dealing with today but in a horrible form. When I read this now, I see a spouse who was probably terrified of the time bomb in her husband's head. This is why we never had fights or arguments...I was scared of my inability to handle hard subjects and she was too. Again, this relates some to my new effort of not being a "cop". I want my W to feel like I'm a mature partner who can take the high road and discuss issues. I want to show her how calm yet assertive I can be. The schedule was a way for me to avoid "confrontation" and I hated the idea of her "cowering" in fear a couple times a week. i.e. I'm repairing the past in the present.
That confrontation led me to see how parents can get so wrapped up in their kids..."fused". It's the old hockey-dad thing where the dad is living vicariously through his kids...trying to repair their own failures through their kid's successes. I immediately stopped making a big deal about biking and never encouraged her to ride again. But I did do something that I will share with you....
(Attention folks...Regardless of how bad your sex life is, how fused you are, how confusing Schnarch is, the following advice WILL work in ALL cases. It's a secret amongst a small community of my friends but today, this knowledge will be yours.....)
HOW TO TEACH YOUR CHILD TO RIDE A TWO WHEELER
1. Put them on a bike that allows their feet to rest comfortably on the ground. I.E. drop the seat as low as it can go. If it's still too tall, get a smaller bike. When my D6 was 4, she started on a 12" until a few months ago when we moved up to a 16".
2. Make sure they get good amount of riding with training wheels so they know how to brake, pedal, etc.
3. Shhhh....here's the secret. Remove the training wheels AND the pedals and leave it in a spot where he/she can get it out without help from an adult.
4. Pour yourself a glass of lemonade, turn on the game and keep one eye out the window (in case they hurt themselves..which they probably won't).
They will sit on the seat, push with their feet like a scooter and learn to balance and turn. They will progressively go further without putting their feet down.
5. When you see them cruising more than 10 feet w/o dabbing, then ask them if they would like the pedals.
My daughter actually came into the house and said "daddy, can you put the pedals back on my bike?". I did and she started pedaling around the driveway. No wrecks, no tears, and no guilt for you...heck...no work for you! Sure, you might miss out on the bonding that occurs when you send your kid careening uncontrollably down a hill, but heck, you can use that time to bond with your W instead because.
6. Get the camcorder out.
7. Stay close by when they start riding with pedals. They will have a tendency to use their feet as brakes and yes, there will be a wreck because of that. I didn't let my D6 learn to brake well before this and until a few weeks ago, she was terrified of going downhill.
You guys shouldn't feel too bad. My father, having no sons, tried year after year to get his 4 daughters interested in any type of sport. We all had every kind of lesson available and my father took us out to practice ice skating or tennis or just throwing a ball all the time. We all felt a little pressure and occasionally he would lose his temper(It drove him completely nuts that we couldn't remember whether the Lions or the Tigers played football. ) but mostly we appreciated the attention. The activities we enjoyed the most were the ones like the squirt gun fight Tony described. We liked imaginative horseplay like my Dad was a dog and we were all fleas who would jump on him until he put us in flea jail or we would have chicken fights in the pool or tobogganing and snowball fights in the winter. Only one of his four daughters ever excelled at sports, but over the years he was able to cheer his three hopelessly uncoordinated daughters on when we were successful in areas that interested us more. The moral of this story is though I still absolutely suck at sports, I always told my Dad right away when I set the curve on an AP exam or if I was shooting for a promotion at work, because I knew he was my #1 fan.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: That confrontation led me to see how parents can get so wrapped up in their kids..."fused". It's the old hockey-dad thing where the dad is living vicariously through his kids...trying to repair their own failures through their kid's successes.
That reminds me of my father...
We have always identified with each other. Many people have remarked how similar we are. When I was a kid, I didn't have many friends (um, I still don't ), so I would hang out with my dad and help him out around the house. He was an engineer who had a very methodical way of doing things. In his matter-of-fact manner and his thoughtful approach to solving problems, he taught me how to think. I still count him as one of my best teachers, and boy I've had plenty.
When I became an adolescent, I decided that I wanted to be different. I saw my dad do "engineering", but it was mostly customer work. He had utter contempt for the people he was supposed to be helping, but he could sure turn on the charm when they called him on the phone. Not me, I was going to be a chemist or a musician, but definitely not an engineer.
I was also going to be different with my wife than he is with my mom. They are always fighting and snipping at each other. It seems like they are having the same fight over and over again, but neither one of them remembers what the fight was really about. Not me. I was going to be patient, and loving, and kind to my wife, and I wasn't going to argue.
So here I am. I am an engineer, now. I realized through my own experience that what my dad was doing was applications engineering, which is a euphemism for salesman. I am much more an engineer than he ever was. He is proud of me though, and that makes me happy for him as well as for me.
And my marriage? Well at least my wife and I don't bicker. But I have memories from long ago, of arguments about how my dad wanted to make love and my mom just wasn't interested, arguments I wasn't supposed to hear. Now I know when I hear the arguments how they started. After 51 years of marriage, the walls are high and strong. I see the same ability in both of us to turn inside of ourselves and shut out the world. In my parents' marriage I see my own.
My dad still strongly identifies with me. But when I grow up, I don't want to be just like him.
Regards,
Tony
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
Quote: 3. Shhhh....here's the secret. Remove the training wheels AND the pedals and leave it in a spot where he/she can get it out without help from an adult.
Wow, that's really interesting. I'm going to have to try that out.
Brakes? We don't need no stinking brakes. We're not worried about hills out here in South East Michigan.
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
Quote: We all felt a little pressure and occasionally he would lose his temper(It drove him completely nuts that we couldn't remember whether the Lions or the Tigers played football. ) but mostly we appreciated the attention.
Of course the solution is to root for the Red Wings. They are the ones wearing red.
Quote: The moral of this story is though I still absolutely suck at sports, I always told my Dad right away when I set the curve on an AP exam or if I was shooting for a promotion at work, because I knew he was my #1 fan.
If either of my kids was good at sports it would be a total fluke considering the athletic abilities of their parents. What's interesting - OK, demented - about our family is how I identify more strongly with my older daughter and my wife identifies more strongly with our younger daughter based on similarities in respective personalities. The things that frustrate me with my younger daughter, such as being unwilling to try new things out of fear, are some of the things that frustrate me about my wife. My older daughter's absent mindedness and inattention frustrate my wife to no end, and I have the same issues. We need to appreciate these little ones for the persons they are and they can be, and constantly remind ourselves that they are not us.
We are so fused we are a singularity.
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
) but mostly we appreciated the attention. The activities we enjoyed the most were the ones like the squirt gun fight Tony described. We liked imaginative horseplay like my Dad was a dog and we were all fleas who would jump on him until he put us in flea jail or we would have chicken fights in the pool or tobogganing and snowball fights in the winter. Only one of his four daughters ever excelled at sports, but over the years he was able to cheer his three hopelessly uncoordinated daughters on when we were successful in areas that interested us more. The moral of this story is though I still absolutely suck at sports, I always told my Dad right away when I set the curve on an AP exam or if I was shooting for a promotion at work, because I knew he was my #1 fan. 
), so I would hang out with my dad and help him out around the house. He was an engineer who had a very methodical way of doing things. In his matter-of-fact manner and his thoughtful approach to solving problems, he taught me how to think. I still count him as one of my best teachers, and boy I've had plenty.