To me, your LM (as you described it) seems... mechanical... or forced. No offense, but that's just what hit me as a 1st impression from what you wrote. That being said, I can relate to those feelings towards your W rather well, since I have had similar towards my W recently.
BTW the difference between your W and mine right now is... mine would have just fallen asleep without telling me anything. Heh. At least your W spoke up... and it got you to a good conversation.
This is probably not the reply you're looking for, but here goes. Why don't you ask your wife how she would feel if you only made $10,000 a year or you only spent time with her 2 evenings a month or you weighed 350 lbs. and you refused to try to improve the situation. I think it's okay to tell her that unenthusiastic sex once a week is not only below the level you're willing to settle for, it's below the level any "normal" guy would be willing to settle for. Feel free to ignore me, but I just read an article on the way postmodern beliefs (everything is relative) are destroying our ability to think rationally. A little common sense is all that is needed to figure out exactly how cr*ppy your sex life is, in the same way that it's pretty easy to figure out whether you are more overweight than average or that you make less money than average.
I would say the average woman based on discussions with peers and a lifetime of reading women's magazines and fiction has the following point of view about sex. She wants sex at least once or twice a week, likes getting head and is a bit ambivalent about giving head, most positions are fine as long as they're comfortable, dislikes doing anything that she thinks makes her look unattractive, likes some romance with her sex, orgasms fairly easily with clitoral stimulation, is 50% likely to be not into anal sex, quite possibly wants more foreplay, dislikes or is bored by porn, likes sexy underwear but is ambivalent about costumes, has faked an orgasm on at least one occasion, is more or less horny depending on the phase of her menstrual cycle, likes a cute male ass, has "light" domination fantasies, is willing to do it with the lights on, becomes less inhibited with age and experience, talks about sex with other women and will brag about how good you are or even how horny you are, only cares about size if it's really dinky, is willing to do what she can to turn you on or help you get a hard-on, will give you a hand-job in the car but is generally uncomfortable with a lack of privacy during sex, will do it in the shower or standing up with her clothes on, wants to be told she's beautiful or sexy, is willing to give and loves to receive massages, likes a bit of verbal foreplay, likes kissing, doesn't care if she sometimes doesn't orgasm as long as you don't make a big deal out of it, is willing to compromise on frequency.
If your W isn't even in the ballpark of the woman I described, your sex life probably sucks and it's not just your opinion or relative to your high drive. You are almost certainly having lower frequency and lower quality sex than the average guy in the U.S.A. in the 21st century. If your wife doesn't recognize this fact she is either delusional or practicing a stubborn form of self-deception.
This tirade wasn't just meant for you, Dave. I'm just getting a little cynical about all the psycho-babble even though it can be helpful. Sometimes I just feel like shouting "The emperor has no clothes" or "Sex twice a year is abnormal" or "Wearing a frumpy nightgown and whining is a clear attempt to avoid sex" or "A lot of guys would love to have a wife with a high sex drive".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Whew. Now I can follow in Mo's footsteps and not sound like I am being a rag.
I thought her form of "initiation" was complete crap.
If I were you, that would be my numero uno thing to tackle--her inability to initiate in any way except to phrase it as a "gift" that she is giving you and that you should be appreciative of. What a load and no wonder you felt no desire for her--frumpy nightgown notwithstanding. No flaming here! I think that if it was truly meant to be a gift, she would have found a way to deliver it in prettier wrapping. Meaning, ditch the stupid phrasing and come to bed nekkid, for goodness sakes.
One suggestion I have is to perhaps give her some ideas of HOW you would like her to say that she is willing to ML. I know that my H is absolutely clueless on how to initiate, or what to say. I literally have to tell him what words I would like to hear (and keep it in the realm of something he would actually be able to say). His brain just does not function that way. It may not be politically Schnarched to say that, but I do think that people have limits and PM is not a recipe for perfection--it is a way to create passion in a marriage, not give each partner their dream mate, kwim? So maybe she would benefit from the knowledge of how you would like her to say it...something along the lines of "What about ML tonight?" does not compromise her integrity (she is not saying, Oooh I want you so bad Big Daddy) but it is a clear initiation that is free from the passive aggressive sh*t that she has a tendency to dish out. And, Dave, I DO realize that she has not one iota of a bad intention when she says this stuff--I can recognize that the sista just does not know how to disclose herself in that way. Intimacy and making herself vulnerable feels very scary and uneasy for her (especially in light of the fact that she is supposed to make herself feel that way FOR YOU, she (thinks she) is not getting much out of it).
So that is my only piece of advice...teach her how to say it in a way that is not offensive to you. Repeat the words until they stick in her brain and she can successfully ditch the sarcasm that she so heavily relies on to protect herself.
...$10,000 a year or you only spent time with her 2 evenings a month or you weighed 350 lbs. and you refused to try to improve the situation...
This would be the wrong approach but I still might use it as an example of the frustration I feel. Last night, she admitted again that she feels like a big disappointment to me. I said, "I've never told you you were a disappointment to me...but if that's how you feel, then what are you doing about it?" She answered " *this*...I'm trying do everything you want me to do...to meet your needs". That's the part of the convo where I came very close to telling her that she can increase her libido on her own. I told her a story of two employees...1 convinces himself that he loves his work and learns to find joy in various aspects of it while the other does exactly what is required to avoid getting fired. Which one is ultimately happier? Which one does a better job? Which one will avert a layoff? It's a little bit existentialist and a shame that she would have to mind-f herself into loving sex with me, but hey...whatever it takes. My point to her was that she has choices about how she lives. I really avoided the "if you really want to change, then you will....." type of convo. That's what causes nice convos to turn into fights. Along with not solving her probs, and speaking from the position of "me", I've also learned to never associate someone else's feelings with their behavior. Let me repeat this.....
Dave's Formula for Peaceful yet Powerful Conversations...
1. Never ever analyze and try to provide the other person with insight into themselves.
2. Never, ever, ever try to solve the other person's problem unless the solemnly ask for your advice.
3. Always speak from your own boat..."I really want..." or "I really like it when you".
4. Never say "we","us", "the relationship", or "together" ex. "We need to work together on the relationship" - WRONG. "I want you to ML to me every few days...it will improve the way I feel about things". - RIGHT
5. Never associate a behavior with someone's feelings except your own. ex. "You cleaned the toilet with my toothbrush...you must hate me"- WRONG. "You cleaned the toilet with my toothbrush...that really pisses me off." - RIGHT
6. Never validate your points with an external reference. ie. Don't say "according to blah blah, we should be having sex 2.5 week" or "Bob and his W do it every sun". If they want to invalidate your feelings, then that's another issue...just ask "so you think there's something wrong with me? that I shouldn't feel this way?".
Sorry....where were we?
Mojo, The long winded description of the average woman is completely inconsequential to my situation. My sex life does suck but the "average" is meaningless. Heck I could say, "my W has sex with me every day but she refuses to whip me with the flogger...my sex life sucks."
When we talked about frequency, she implied that I never gave her a choice about the frequency (baaaap). I had to explain again that I have never forced her to do anything...I've only spoken of my "wants and feelings" and that she is free to tell me hers. I told her she doesn't have to do anything that she doesn't want to. Same 'ol story.
I'm worried that she claims to feel like a "failure". I'm not certain if this is to manipulate me or if it's real. What can I do about that? Maybe I could say "the day I think you are a failure is the day I sign the D papers". Who knows.
Folks, I've been talking down from the alter lately but I must say that it's still harder than crap to work through this. Sure, I've made progress with frequency and lots of progress with myself, but it's plateau-d. Just because the sex improves doesn't mean the R will. I'm having major separation fantasies...not so much for finding other women, but for my own peace of mind.
I once jokingly told my W that I would let her know when I decide to have an affair and that it won't be a surprise. I really feel compelled to actually say it sometime..."hey, I think I'm going to go out and try to get some sex tonight...I'll be at xxxx bar". Let her decide if she wants to meet me there.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
So maybe she would benefit from the knowledge of how you would like her to say it...something along the lines of "What about ML tonight?" does not compromise her integrity (she is not saying, Oooh I want you so bad Big Daddy) but it is a clear initiation that is free from the passive aggressive sh*t that she has a tendency to dish out.
I spent about 5 minutes explaining "how" she should initiate in the future and I will continue to do so. It was the first topic in the big long convo. I said "If you decide that you are willing to ML on a certain night, do you think you can lead with at least a little seduction?...just whisper that you would like me to come up to the br in a few minutes". But that's the problem...she would be lying if she said she wanted me. Last night's initiation w clearly designed to minimize the chance of me saying "ok" but she needs to understand that after that many days, I'm going to say yes even if I'm not in the mood.
The love I'm nurturing feels like a piece of wood that is smoldering and I'm blowing on it constantly to heat it back up to point where it might grow flames. But lately I'm just getting dizzy.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: I once jokingly told my W that I would let her know when I decide to have an affair and that it won't be a surprise. I really feel compelled to actually say it sometime..."hey, I think I'm going to go out and try to get some sex tonight...I'll be at xxxx bar". Let her decide if she wants to meet me there.
Double dog dare you. Just kidding.
I think you and I have somehow PM'd ourselves into a corner for the moment. I don't know if I would advise you to make such a bold move, but I would selfishly like to see you do it just so chicken-hearted me could avoid being the first one on the board to make such a super-scary move. Really, I guess what you need to ask yourself is whar is your preferred outcome to this scenario? Would it really be a two-choice dilemma for your W, or would it be a step further away from the relationship for you?
I know you are right about all your rules for peaceful conversation, but I am just ornery. How would these rules apply to the constant conversations I'm having with my H in which he is telling me how stressed out he is about something and is looking to me for emotional support. I find it very hard not to break rules #1,2 and 6 in the course of these conversations. Should I just keep saying "Wow, that sucks" over and over again? I am tempted to offer my H solutions to his stress problems because his stress has now become the last barrier to a passionate marriage. I know this is the wrong thing to do according to PM, but I would feel bad if I didn't offer him emotional support in some way.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Yep, Dave, I see your dilemma and that's why I suggested she initiate by saying "What about ML tonight?"
Anything else would violate HER integrity and she would be play acting. NOT that there's anything wrong with that!
But if that is not where she's at, at the moment, then she is violating herself and she won't do it for very long before she says Screw this.
But she can think of a way to phrase it, along with watching her sarcastic tone of voice, so that she is initiating and you are accepting and you are both happy. Not thrilled.....it won't be the sexiest thing you've ever experienced but it will be good and will foster the EC.
Regarding the sexy stuff...I feel I should warn you that my H loves to talk sexy while we are having sex about all the things he will do to me, eventually. This day has never come. He simply cannot break out of his shell and do what he wants to do. Even simple things like check underneath a skirt to see if I have panties on, for example. Not things that require him to swing from the ceiling and let out his best Tarzan holler. HE brings up these scenarios that he wants to do, he has even gone so far as to set a date, and then he stands me up. It is as if there is an internal censor inside him that will not allow him to act the way he really wants to.
At any rate, I have accepted that his talk is just that--talk. Now when he starts saying, No really I'm going to do it!! I just say, Oh that would be nice if you do..... And leave it at that. I know full well he will never do it and that knowledge has come the hard way.
The reason I am telling you this is because this might be the case with your wife and the ear whispers. In a conversation she might say, Yeah yeah! I could do that! But IRL she may never get to that point. Who knows....I can't remember how adventurous your wife is, so this advice might be worthless.
In the meantime, though, I would start small with your suggestions to her and have it be something that she would feel very comfortable saying and could actually manage it without the sarcasm safety net. Then she can work up from there!
One thing I'm worried about is the "tempo" I'm setting with all of this. It seems impossible to gauge whether you are pushing things too fast until you get down the road and look backwards. I got very excited about the progress we were making and maybe I've been turning up the heat too high lately and doing so also increases my expectations to level that leaves me vulnerable to frustration. This may be the cause of the engagements becoming less-than-ideal.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: Should I just keep saying "Wow, that sucks" over and over again? I am tempted to offer my H solutions to his stress problems because his stress has now become the last barrier to a passionate marriage. I know this is the wrong thing to do according to PM, but I would feel bad if I didn't offer him emotional support in some way.
I can see the "wow, that sucks" approach being PM but not very PC (politically correct) in a modern R that requires communication. Many of us are with our spouses because we *like* to solve his/her problems and make ourselves useful. In my case, if I started a "wow, that sucks" response to things every time my W tried to talk to me, she'd think that I didn't care about her anymore.
That being said, you might offer your H something like, "well if I were in a similar situation to you, I would...." Then, offer him some "solutions" from how YOU would proceed. It's not directly telling him how to solve his problems, and he doesn't have to listen to your advice, but it's a way to present it that might be more PM-ish. Good luck!
AntlerDave said: ----------------- One thing I'm worried about is the "tempo" I'm setting with all of this. It seems impossible to gauge whether you are pushing things too fast until you get down the road and look backwards. -----------------
Statistically, I have 14 years left on the planet. My guess is that you are a good 15 +years younger than me.
Point is, that there is nothing wrong with you backing off for a couple of weeks to give the concrete time to cure. Green concrete is weak and brittle. Since it is a hydrate, it cures over time. It gains tensile strength and hardness.
Your wife has made a lot of changes. Make sure you give her some 'cure' time. You can afford the wait.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
