Last fall (back when I was mentally capable of remembering e-mail addresses and passwords and was writing under simply "JakeS"!), Corri gave some wonderful advice and comments from an LD spouse's perspective -- primarily about the habitual rejection and barbs were something to be anticipated and used consciously as a tool to problem-solve. It was pretty similar to what I gathered from SSM: no matter how "cool" an LD spouse is, there is likely to be a considerable part of fear behind that facade. I showed the thread to my spouse, who thought it interesting but did not reject it out of hand. (That figures as a "strikes a chord" for me.) She read SSM and made a commitment to work on our sex life.
There was some improvement in terms of frequency, and lots of periods without, and I'm not going to bore y'all with repetitive psychodrama. I love my spouse, she's generally a smart cookie, and she is extraordinarily uncomfortable with discussing feelings in a vague manner, especially in contrast to my being forthcoming. "I don't like being prodded and poked" (verbally) is her description, and that's fair enough. And she is the one who has to decide to think about her feelings, etc.
So why come back to this BB, especially after having to acknowledge that I lost my password and couldn't remember the e-mail address I used last time? (Mailinator.com is a wonderful site, unless you forget things!) My LD W is a teacher, and as she goes back to work July 28 (yep, that early), I wanted to think aloud about how to convince her to set priorities, and to include ML and spending time together in general as a pretty high priority.
What I'm doing better on: being positive when we spend time together in bed, especially if she couldn't get aroused; responding to my frustration by thinking about a few very specific passages from SSM (some talking about the LD perspective as a caution to the HD partners); listening and observing my spouse more carefully before I open my trap with filler questions that I've made trite. ("What are you thinking?" at an awkward moment, for example. She's crying, Jake; she's probably not imagining herself winning the Tour de France.)
I suspect that she's still very frustrated and that she's fearful that she'll say something destructive if she tells me what she's feeling. (She's explained that in the past.) Part of this is certainly a combination of stress, physically needing some lubrication, and feeling squeamish about that. (When I've snuck some lube into foreplay, things have generally worked much better. I've told her that I need it and let her assume it's for my physical comfort.) Part of it is our collective history.
But she's got to figure some of that out by herself. And, given the timing, she needs to figure out how to balance all that with the stress from the upcoming school year. I'm willing to help out with virtually anything that's required, but ... you know the drill. She has to tell me.
So here's the gist of the request for jokes in the subject line: My W has (reluctantly) agreed to ML this weekend. Last time we tried, a few days ago, she couldn't get aroused. Tonight is the second time she's begged off anything with exhaustion and just not feeling well, and agreed to set a date when I asked explicitly.
Now, I know what to do/say if it works great. And I know one of the things I need to do if she's just not getting anything out of it. But if she refuses point-blank, or if she has a lousy experience, I need to set the stage for a conversation (not then, of course!). And one thing I haven't tried is humor. Reading one of AtlDave's ideas ("Well, then you're going to have to jump me tomorrow to make up for making me wait!") made me chuckle. So I ask the collective off-beat wisdom of the BB members to come up with some gentle jokes that move a conversation. My wife is witty (but doesn't pun-ish her listeners), so gross/off-color humor is out for her. Self-deprecating humor (from my perspective) would definitely welcome, and it would have two *possible* goals:
- to reassure her (in case she doesn't get aroused) that she can be, under just the right circumstances - to point out the need to discuss the physical requirements of sex and comfort explicitly - to suggest that scheduling LM is a productive thing (and better than letting a sex life dissipate) - to remind her that we've made a joint commitment to working on our sex life - to point out that solutions might be forthcoming if she devotes some conscious effort to thinking about our sex life and telling me explicitly what would help
Let me give a few lame examples of what *would* fit (though I want better ideas!!):
"Honey, you know I'll do almost anything so you can get aroused and enjoy lovemaking. I have to admit, though, that I have to rule out two ideas. No live elephants, and I refuse to show that videotape of Bill Clinton's 1997 State of the Union address."
"Oh, yes. And, please, no sandpaper."
"We really need to talk about making love both in and out of bed. I know I've forgotten, but my Palm has been reminding me of it for the last six months."
All suggestions very much appreciated.
JakeS, version 1.9 (still lots of bugfixes to come)
Jake, Is there ANY way you can convince her of the usefulness of lube?
It really is not something to use as a "last resort" or only when the wife has "failed". I look at it as more of a sex TOOL than anything else. We use it a lot just because it makes everything feel better; sometimes it helps during foreplay; certain positions cause me to dry up faster, etc. There is no shame in it--I wonder where she got that idea? I mean, if all women waited until they were sopping wet to have sex every time, there would be a LOT less sex going on!
Also I have read here that lube creates arousal in a way that is similar to "tricking" the brain into thinking that it really is aroused and so the sexy feelings come.
Right now, I am 31 wks pregnant and very lubricated ALL the time. Even still, we use it.
If your wife could get past the feeling that she has to be crawling out of her skin with horniness BEFORE you start anything, I bet things would improve immensely. Sometimes I am just not getting that much out of foreplay, although I know that sex will be awesome. That's when the lube comes out and we proceed. Now, I am the HD partner so I am open (and encouraging) this, and I realize your W might not be as open to becoming aroused, but perhaps you could start by seeing if you could persuade her of the benefits of lube? It sounds like she is putting an awful lot of pressure on herself, unecessarily. I know there would be lots of nights that I would have had to beg off sex entirely if I was waiting to become wet naturally. Usually I have no problem but the reasons can range from: I just took a shower, I am breastfeeding a child, the ceiling fan is blowing on me and now my natural lube has been literally blown away, we are taking too long, H is falling asleep during foreplay and I am not becoming aroused, ETC ETC. It is really helpful in these situations.
Good luck and sorry I am no help in the joke department. If you need help in the "being brutally direct with a hint of love" let me know!
Quote: "We really need to talk about making love both in and out of bed. I know I've forgotten, but my Palm has been reminding me of it for the last six months."
Hi Jake...I really like your approach with a sense of humor...I try to use that myself with my LDH. One piece of advice though...I might try staying away from using references like the one you have above. When I have tried a similar approach it's backfired on me and I've come to realize why...I think to the LD person it comes off as an intentional/unintentional guilt trip which simply puts them back on the defensive and increases the anxiety they experience. Hope that makes sense.
Having a sense of humor about the situation does help IMO, it can quickly diffuse a situation if necessary while also keeping the topic on track...but if not careful it can also cause complications. Best of luck!!!
Have you found any jokes? I can't believe MM has not stopped by... she's got some great one liners... MM can you help Jake out? I can't remember what thread you put them on, but I almost wet my pants laughing when I read them...
Quote: You might just try confronting his statements with humor. You could reply "Yes, we better take a break. The warranty on your penis ran out yesterday, so you know it's probably going to break pretty soon." or "Yes, this is really too much. I was reading just this morning that frequent sex with your spouse is very bad for your health." or "Yes, we better conserve your energy for cleaning out the garage this weekend."
These are the one-liners I posted on IHJ's thread when she was looking for ways to reply to her H saying things like "That's enough for now" or "We need to take a break." after they had sex. Obviously, you would have to change them a bit for your sich. You would have to express concern about the warranty on your own penis and you might think about substituting "attending the PTO meeting" for "cleaning the garage". Of course, that would only work if your wife shares my opinion that PTO meetings are the equivalent of Chinese water torture.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
MM... I still haven't used the humor; I haven't been doing so great lately. I have been confronting him on neeeding more sexual intimacy to feel connected, and he has responded, but something is missing. I hate having to ask...he puts me in this position to push him, and even though there is no attitude, there's no spontaneous enthusiasm either. Last nite he said to me, "What night is it when I just get to go to sleep...I'm exhausted?" and I just had no empathy for him. I told him any night he can just go to sleep but that his actions will affect my level of connection to him and that makes me lose my spirit. I said I don't know what the consequences of that will be, but one thing I know for sure that at this stage of my life, I know too much to sell myself out. He then reached for me, and it started to rain, and he said how cozy this was, how he looks forward to these moments,etc. ( In other words, I jump-started him for the moment). Anyway, back to the humor thing, yeah I'd love to use it but I am in this serious place right now.
I'm in a serious place too, but I know I should force myself to use some humor or at least be more happy-go-lucky. We had fantastic sex earlier this week, but he's had a really cr*ppy 4 days on the road and I fear I won't be gettin' any tonight. I am just hoping that he's still believing that connecting with me is relaxing, not another stressful addition to his week.
My personal goal for the week is to be more direct when initiating, since my H and Corri think this will work better for me. I am either going to find an opportunity to initiate by saying "Let's F*ck" or I am going to try being direct AND funny by writing "Loves to F*ck" on my t-shirt with magic marker. Maybe we can all help Jake by thinking up funny things to write on a HD spouses t-shirt or bumper sticker.I'll get things started.
"Will work for head."
"If this van starts a rockin'...who am I kidding?"
"Plays well with mothers"
"Use caution when wet"
"What's the opposite of a pickle? Whatever my husband's got in his pocket."
"My balls are so blue, they're going to name a Crayola crayon after them."
"MAN MAGNET. Too bad my husband's made of plastic."
"Never marry a woman who's good at dodgeball."
"He said he wanted a wife who loved to "do the dirty". I didn't know he was talking about the dishes."
"I masturbate so much, I get a hard-on playing Yahtzee."
HD POLITICAL HUMOR
What's the difference between Clinton and Bush?
Clinton lets his dick do the thinking and Bush lets his Dick do the thinking.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Thanks to everyone who's commented (especially with the jokes). Last night was frustrating but I hope useful in the long run. After the children went to bed, we sat up talking and laughing. Then we went to the bedroom, my S put on a lacy negligee, I got undressed, we went to bed, and the moment I lay my head on her chest, she startled as if she would've jumped 10 feet if I hadn't been in the way.
She got very upset and said some things that she's occasionally said in the past ("I love you, but I just can't do this any more" - referring to sexual intimacy, not the M). I sat, just smiling at her, which confused her no end. But eventually she smiled back. We agreed to talk tonight so we wouldn't try to be problem-solving at 12:30 a.m. Well, we chatted a bit but not very productively because it was after midnight. And, MegaMojo, I did use the expired-warranty line. She frowned and looked sad and confused for a moment, but only a moment, and I think it was just having to think through whether it was a comment said in bitterness. The positive context was there but humor is still dicey when your S's nerves are raw.
I picked up PM at the library yesterday, and my W mentioned it and seemed curious. I told her she'd have to wait until I was done (though maybe I should've suggested she get a copy for herself!). I'll post a review when I'm done -- there are some very useful concepts, but my academically-trained mind grates at some things (maybe "differentiation" harkens too closely to the postmodernist "differance" -- yes, deliberately misspelled). But not in this thread. We're headed to my MIL's today to help her buy a new computer. I hope my W will drive on the way there so I can read a bit of PM.
We'll see what tonight brings. Her being willing to talk is very important and positive. JakeS
Those bumperstickers were a hoot! Jake: sorry to hear that you are in such a challenging period of your marriage. Trying to use humor can be good, but sometimes it seems to backfire, as when your wife tried to figure out if what you said was said in "bitterness." I know that when the subject of sex comes up, my W really loses her sense of humor, so I have to stay away from it. It didn't use to be that way...we could joke about anything, but lately, it's only been open season on certain political figures ;^)
Good luck, keep the loving but gentle pressure on her and remember that you deserve to have a happy marriage as you define it, and I know your definition includes an active sex life with your W.
