Thanks for the comments. Yes, you are probably right about the passive part, that's part of why I'm here - we've lost each other, I'm loosing myself...
I don’t want to keep ’hiding’ behind cultural differences, but there are some aspects of my sitch which are cultural. For example, the cards and work.
I teach flute in a music school, in a way, part of the public school system, but seperate afternoon programs. I work afternoon-evening, and have school holidays and summer off. I’m a SAHM for three months every summer.
My kids have never been in any daycare outside the home, right now my in-laws help out (willingly) a great deal. Now as the kids get older, this ’ideal’ job isn’t so much any more, since I don’t buy into the typical Finnish idea that once kids start school they’re ok on their home. The norm here is to be a ’latch-key’ kid from 7 up!
I have talked to H about me staying home, financially it’s not really possible. We bought a large single-family home a few years ago, and while we are not at all living outside our means, we do need both incomes. Without mine, we could do alright in a smaller place, or apartment, and I do not want to give up our yard on the edge of the town forest with 4 small kids. So it’s not ideal, perhaps, our sitch, but it’s pretty good.
Re: credit cards. I’m not a Finnish citizen, another story that I don’t think this is the place to bring up, but that means I’m not eligable to get a card in my name here. This may have changed recently, since I did just recently get a car loan, but we haven’t checked it out. In spite of the fact that I’ve lived here for more than 15 yrs, have 4 kids, own half a house (bank loans aren’t a problem) I can not get a credit card, and there are a few mail order companies which wouldn’t sell to me, because I’m not a citizen.
I did’t really mean to make such a big deal about the books, just wanted to point out that I couldn’t run out this afternoon to the library or bookstore to pick them up, and that my H *might* get defensive (think I think it’s ’his’ fault that I feel the need to read such books) and I didn’t think it would help matters any. Since he would find out that I ordered something, it is just common courtesy in our sitch for me to tell him I’m ordering ’something’ and does he want to order something too, we do this all the time. It may be then that he does find out what I’m ordering, but there’s not too much I can do, in the end, it’s probably not a big deal.
I don’t want to go into a big discription of how Finnish culture differs from the American, in part because it would come off sounding like stereotypes, and I don’t want to do that. I also don’t want to always use it as an excuse, because, in the end, not all of our problems by far are culturally related, people are people, and I do believe that this way of looking at things will work. But I’ll explain a little.
The talkative, assertive, ’American’ me comes off as very overpowering here. I had lots of problems with FIL pre-kids ( he loves the kids, and has come to respect me through them) because I would stand up to him, and wasn’t afraid of stating my mind, or showing strong emotions. While Finns are proud of their ’equality’, that works outside the home. In the traditional Finnish family, the wife takes care of the home and children, and the husband makes the big decisions. Children are seen and not heard. Creativity, individualism is not encouraged, the squeaky wheel is banged back into place rather than getting the oil it wants (sorry for all the cliches)This is changing...but my H did grow up in a very traditional home. Now that my girls are at school, they are ’learning’ how to ’be Finnish’, but they are also able to switch - and as a group, my kids do stand out when they’re with Finnish kids. I remember reading somewhere that something like 50% of Finnish women did not know their husband’s annual salary. That doesn’t surprise me in the least. By American standards, Finns do not talk, and especially, they do not analyze their problems the way we tend to do. Marriage counselors and marriage camps are a very new phenomana here, and the younger generations are starting to realise their worth. This country has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. Usually about once a year you hear of a case of a family where Dad has lost his job or got into debt, and goes home and shoots the wife and kids and himself.
Our evening routine has fallen into the routine of once the kids are in bed, we spend sometime doing our 'own thing', I pick up and do chores, he sits in front of the computer, I usually do answer some e-mails, or whatever, and then we sit in front of the TV for an hour or so before going to bed (him with book and candy to avoid talking to me). If I suggest that we go to bed early or talk, he usually counters with 'well, I have things to do...'
Last night he started playing the piano for a while. I came down and asked for a hug. He chuckled and asked 'why', but he was obviously happy that I did. I said I just needed a hug, and he just smiled and pulled out some music.
We've been singing lately - or he plays, I sing, though I don't get to choose...partly, I'll give him, 'cause of his limited skills (but while I am a professional flutist, I'm a lousy pianist )
Anyway, last night, he pulled out some flute music. He asked me to play, even though he was sight reading. I'm not in 'good shape' with 4 kids, I don't have time to practice, but playing together started me thinking...
Since he was sight reading, we were playing very slowly. It was the kind of piece that at this tempo, I could blatently hear all my weaknesses from lack of practice, and it made me kind of sad. I wasn't able with him either to do the little things a musician does that brings a piece to life, he doesn't have the experience to be able to follow anything but me sticking strictly to the beat and playing clearly.
I couldn't help thinking that this was a bit like our love life...I remembered back to the very first time we ML...we put Messian on in the background, since we had just been to a concert, and I was describing how passionate his tonal colors were... I know he was turned on by me, but didn't understand what I was saying. It's as though he sees the world in black and white, and me in color...
Back to the hug. After we played for a while, he said he would like to eat something and watch TV. I asked again for a hug, and when he asked why, I said for the same reason you want to eat, it feels good.
I never got the hug, but he did sit close to me on the couch, and this morning he did thank me for making breakfast. Small steps...
Quote: I have talked to H about me staying home, financially it’s not really possible. We bought a large single-family home a few years ago, and while we are not at all living outside our means, we do need both incomes.
Then you are living beyond your means, what if you get sick, then what.
Without mine, we could do alright in a smaller place, or apartment, and I do not want to give up our yard on the edge of the town forest with 4 small kids. So it’s not ideal, perhaps, our sitch, but it’s pretty good.
Check out DAVERAMSEY.COM, listen to serveral of his archives, he splains a unique way to tackle money issues.
Quote: I can not get a credit card, and there are a few mail order companies which wouldn’t sell to me, because I’m not a citizen.
What about a debit card?? Spends the same.
Quote: Last night he started playing the piano for a while. I came down and asked for a hug. He chuckled and asked 'why', but he was obviously happy that I did. I said I just needed a hug, and he just smiled and pulled out some music.
Are you giving a hug when he leaves in the morning, and when he returns. Are you including little niceties in his lunch? Check out MARSVENUS.COM
Quote: Since he was sight reading, we were playing very slowly......playing clearly.
A AHA moment, so what can you do with this knowledge.
Quote: I never got the hug, but he did sit close to me on the couch, and this morning he did thank me for making breakfast. Small steps...
Do you know his LOVE LANGUAGES. If you can fill his LOVE TANK, you will get a lot more hugs.
Quote: I know he was turned on by me, but didn't understand what I was saying. It's as though he sees the world in black and white, and me in color...
Something comes to mind, where is that wonderful woman I married and who replaced her with this MONMY. Do you notice if you treat H like you treat kids.
If I get sick, I will receive 'sick pay' from the state. Trust me, don't try to compare the US and Finnish systems unless you've lived here for a while. I had a debit card before they were available in the US, we have joint accounts.
I know that my husband controlling the finances probably is an issue in our marriage, but not one to be addressed right now. First things first please. We need to be able to get comfortable with each other again.
I don't appreciate you questioning my skills as a mother. Whether I had one or ten children, each one would need me just the same. I have four wonderful children, all with very vivid imaginations, and they all enjoy each other's company. Anyone who've met them, on either side of the pond have commented on what a remarkable bunch they are.
If I 'mother' my husband, it is because that is what he has wanted. I have given him every oportunity since I became pregnant with my first child to treat me like a woman, and he has pushed it away. I do try to hug him in the morning, he stands like a ice cube and pulls away.
I think it's probably best that I wait till I have a chance to read the books and then decide if I will post about my experiences. I don't find this present exchange helpful, on the contrary, it's just giving me a headache (pretty ironic, eh?)
Quote: I think it's probably best that I wait till I have a chance to read the books and then decide if I will post about my experiences. I don't find this present exchange helpful, on the contrary, it's just giving me a headache (pretty ironic, eh?)
((((( Heapmom))))))
I hope you'll reconsider. You must be quite a strong person to leave the country and set up home in a strange environment, and manage work and 4 children as well! Sounds like your H really needed your energy and your "being" to open him up from his family. It takes me awhile to comment on new situations here til I get a feel...I have also been somewhat self absorbed in my own issues. Anyway, I hope you stick around and good luck to you regardless! Journey
Heapmom....
I feel it's really important that you read this book (as well as others on the board)...if you'll allow me to I'd be happy to send you my copy...I can easily get another. Let me know if you'd like me to do that and I will provide you with a private way to give me your contact info...I can overnight it to you and you can have it tomorrow or Wed.
I was just thinking the same thing, Lass. And heapmom, not everyone on here thinks the same way as Poe. Stick around awhile and I think you will be able to benefit from the many different viewpoints available here.
I am intrigued and bothered by the fact that your H is not even willing to give you a simple hug. However, I've been criticized in the past for "asking" for hugs (both my W and members here on the board have criticized me). If you feel like a hug, give him one. Don't ask him for one. If you want him to hug you, then you need to to tell him that you want hugs from your husband, and that if you don't get them, then you will take that as his way of addressing your request for hugs, and your behavior will reflect that.
Hello heap... welcome to what I like to call Purgatory... the first stop in a journey towards the proverbial heaven (and that would be communication in your relationship!). I hope you find a lot of things to think about and even more things to assist you in breaking out of your "shell."
Quote: Our evening routine has fallen into the routine of once the kids are in bed, we spend sometime doing our 'own thing', I pick up and do chores, he sits in front of the computer, I usually do answer some e-mails, or whatever, and then we sit in front of the TV for an hour or so before going to bed (him with book and candy to avoid talking to me). If I suggest that we go to bed early or talk, he usually counters with 'well, I have things to do...'
Wow, that's a very similar routine to my own. Once D6 and D2 are asleep and the kitchen is clean, my W crochets while we drink coffee and watch TV. I have come to see this as her "book and candy" (as you referred to your H's defense mechanism).
I can tell you what works really well for me: I grab the remote and TURN OFF THE TV. Then, I make a statement about my intentions to talk with her, such as, "I've been thinking about our marriage, and I need to tell you a few things that I'm thinking about" (or something similar). My W usually puts her crafts away and listens. Then, we have a good talk... or at least she listens while I talk.
If you "make a bold statement" by turning off the TV and talking to your H, you will see how he reacts. My guess is that he'll be "standoffish" or non-committal (like my wife was the 1st few times). Still, you have made your intentions clear to him... that you want to talk. So, you can talk and hope that he hears you. There's really not much else that you can do. If he really gets upset, then you should ask him when a good time is. Make a date and stick with it. I know it's difficult, but it does work.
One of the most important things that I've learned from here on DB.com is this: you can't change your spouse, and you can't expect them to want to change just because you ask them to. What you CAN do is change your own way of thinking and doing. Make yourself better and become more aware of how life is affecting your family.
The SSM book is a great resource for spouses who recognize that a M is not fulfilling without sex. Please do read it. It helps. And, you can hug your H without him hugging you back... I hope that that's still OK.
Good luck with your evening... be bold... turn off that TV and say something to your H!
I want to suggest that you NOT read any John Gray Mars & Venus garbage. Grey completely takes advantage of people who require "other-validation" to reinforce their skewed ideas to avoid true introspection. He belittles the strength of the human spirit.
There is a great number of people on this site, actively working through their problems by posting their own situations, and empathetically listening and responding to others. In my first week on this board, I made the mistake of taking advice from someone who was one of the least successful people on this board and it pushed my progress back a month. That blunder has made it harder for me to use new approaches. My advice is that you just keep posting, journaling and listening. Don't *do* anything yet until you learn to understand *who* where the advice is coming from. Just because a member has an old registration date, it doesn't mean they are more experienced. Take the advice here for what it it's worth...heck, be skeptical of my advice too.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
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