Make sure to keep the appointment, Denise. My ex wife used to try to get me not to go to counseling appointments, but I always kept them. Sounds like he doesn't want anything to change about you, especially your attitude towards him. That's pretty sad, when you don't want your partner to grow, or to be released from her suffering. Hugs to you, and know that you aren't alone in your challenging relationship.
Go to the counselor. This is action. Action is energy, energy causes change. (Wow, that sounds like a chant from Dune.)
You hubby has already noticed. He will continue to notice and the stakes for him to continue ignoring your needs just got higher.
You are not being mean to hubby. Change can be very frightening, if nothing else, it is a least a pain to deal with, so expect some fallout.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I kept that appointment. Went with my Starbucks Latte in hand. I really liked the C. I, of course, filled her in on some background. She asked me if I was asking him plainly what I wanted. I told her that I have asked, begged, pleaded, gave up. I told her also why I hate asking. (Ex-husband thing).
I did tell her that I did not feel that my H was doing this to be a jerk but that the end result was the same. I told her that I realized that I could not change my H and that I wanted to learn to cope with the situation and not be upset anymore.
She did ask if we used sex toys - I said no. She suggested we do - not to sure about that.
We discussed the fact that everyone has baggage. She gave me a paper with "Seven Lessons of "Earth School" that I would like to share with everyone. They were really good points - nothing earth shattering but important all the same.
1. Your main job in the whole world is to take of "yourself". We know this because of the second Commandment of God "Love thy Neighbor AS THYSELF"
2. YOu can change no one else. Just you.
3. Learn to stay peacful and let no one push your buttons.
4. Take nothing personally...it is just the universe displaying to you what is going on inside of the other person.
5. Love is All Important
6. Forgiveness is all important
7. It is not our job to judge.
I am going back in 2 weeks. When I got home H asked if I wanted/could talk about what I discussed with the counselor. I said if we would if he would like to discuss it.
We had a good conversation. I told him that his total lack of interest hurt me deeply. I told him that I never saw desire for me on his face anymore and that I found that more hurtful than I could ever say.
He told me that he still desires me and that usually his desire is during the day and that there is always SOMEONE there. I disputed some of that but I have two teenage children at home. They always seem to have someone over. My nephew visits us sometimes for days at a time in the summer. As I told DH I let the kids have company because they should not be social outcasts just because we have issues.
I also told him that I feel like he has become a wonderful friend/roommate instead of my husband. He said I was full of it. I told him that I had known him for 25 years - I wasn't a mail order bride he ordered yesterday. I told him I have seen lust on your face for me for years and years - it was a race to see who could get the the bedroom first. I told him I haven't see that look on your face for a very long time. I said that when I try to get close to him physically ie putting my arms around him, kissing him, etc that he mentally and physically withdraws from me. He has always been a very private person and his illness has made him even more private. He is more open emotionally with me now than he ever was but he still keeps me at a distance on some levels. I told him today that when we were first married that he kept an emotional distance and now he not only can be emotionally distant he is physically distant. I said that he was shutting me out totally and that I felt like I was married to a stranger.
I think that I gave him alot of food for thought and he did me. The C suggested that he could be very depressed/upset over this as I am and just handles it differently. I asked him about that and he said yes he is upset that our sex life has gone to the dogs and that I am upset about it. He said that I need to speak plainly to him and ask for his attentions. He also said that for the past 3 weeks (which I already knew) that he had been feeling really bad and that he doesn't like to tell me. He said it serves no purpose. He explained that if everytime he felt bad he said "I feel bad" that he would be saying that everyday and all I would do is worry about him. He said when he actually tells me he doesn't feel good that I know that is it to a really bad point. He said that people who constantly complain about feeling bad actually desensitize the people around them which I know that can be true. He said that people who constantly yell wolf won't be taken seriously when the wolf is at the door.
I guess everyone deals with things differently. I am going to continue to go to counseling I am not going to ask him to go with me. He will have to make that decision for himself. I will continue to post and ask for help - I need it.
That sounds like real progress to me. The fact that he recognizes the issue and its importance to you is a good thing and a good start.
The toys are actually a very good idea. It can take some of the performance pressure off your husband and still reserve enough of the "good stuff" to share with hubby. For example, he could use a toy to get you close before entering you. You could manually or orally ready him while he gets you ready. By reducing the amount of time he spends banging around, you reduce the potential for upset with his condition.
If he is game, using toys in some form could very well be the compromise that brings you two together.
I suggest you take a couple hundred bucks (if you can budget it) and buy a dozen toys that look interesting. Make sure you get some lube as well. The Maximus lube is the best we have tried. It is water based and lasts a long time. Use the toys until you find the ones that work best for you and just toss the others. My wife has a couple of favorites. Make sure you keep plenty of fresh batteries - for obvious reasons :-)
Don't be embarrassed about using the toys. You are an adult. They are legal and people have been using them for a few thousand years :-)
If you can get hubby to the point of being willing to do whatever it takes to have a fulfilling sex life with you, then I have no doubt that you can come up with a plan that accounts for his condition and your needs.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Hi Denise/Neicie, ( Is Neicie your nickname in RL? It's cute)
It's interesting that by you making this move to go to the counselor on your own, it got you and your H talking in a very real way. I like the openness of the convo...he was able to disclose how awful he is feeling, and I imagine that is a big part of his attitude problem with you. This really is a step forward, and it shows again how one person can make an effort and faciliate change. Good luck... Journey
Hey Denise. I'm glad you went, too. Keep it up. Did you feel invigorated when you came out of the counselor's office, or exhausted? I almost always felt invigorated. I'm also glad that you and H had a talk. Communication is key.
NOPkins, Journey, and Hairdog, Thanks for the help. NOPkins, not sure if I am ready to hop off and get some toys...I'll have to give that some thought! LOL - maybe I am more of a prude than I thought - maybe not...HUM....something to consider. I just wonder if he would think I'd really lost my mind.
Journey, my aunts, uncles, cousins called me Neicie as a child and they still do for the most part. It is a light hearted memory that always makes me smile. My cousin, David, in particular still calls me that. I don't think he ever calls me Denise!
I've wanted to go to counseling for a long time...I've just kept putting it off. Interestingly enough, the C. seems to think that Crohns is a result of stress and unresolved issues as a child. I did not impart that piece of information to DH though. I think that stress can aggravate the problem but I don't think it causes it!
I do think that DH would benefit from C. Like everyone, he has issues ... ie a mother who can be a PILL, a sister who died as a child that really effected him, and a feeling of not letting anyone close enough to hurt him ever. He feels that if one acknowledges that one has issues that that is enough. I am going to continue to go. I have my own issues and baggage. I am hoping that at some point he will go with me of his own volition.
Hairdog, I felt lighter when I came out of the office. It was a relief to talk to someone face to face who was there to help me and not judge me or my H. I have a best friend that I could tell anything to and yet I have not. That would be a major disloyalty to my H and while it would be nice to speak to her about it I will never do so. My H said yesterday, "so this C. knows everything. I don't like that. You know that I am a private person. But I know that this is really bothering you and I don't have the right to tell you not to seek help." H is even going to pay for it. Yay for him - more cake money for me.
I went to a gumpaste flower class today with an internationally known artist and made a beautiful fire lily. It was a happy day and I need that. He does gripe about the money I spend on it which I find annoying. I did tell him yesterday that I would rather ML with him than make any flower, cake, afghan, etc. but in lou of ML I would do flowers as a substitute!
We did ML this morning which was wonderful. We have not ML in a month. I have to go out of town overnight 3 times in the upcoming weeks for Work. I am going to ask H to join me for one of those nights. It would mean him taking a Friday off. I don't have to go far - it is just 90 miles away but it would be a fun trip for us. He can play golf or ride his Harley. Keep sending good vibes my way - I need them - I was just about to totally give up and crawl into myself and hide.
I have to go out of town overnight 3 times in the upcoming weeks for Work. I am going to ask H to join me for one of those nights. It would mean him taking a Friday off. I don't have to go far - it is just 90 miles away but it would be a fun trip for us. He can play golf or ride his Harley.
Quote: I am frustrated and mad...I long for him to reach out and touch me but days and weeks go by with nothing. I have tried to get him to read the SSM book with no success. Guys don’t read, if you must, get the audio. I found the M/V and WHAT WOMEN WANT MEN TO KNOW most enlightening. Compromise with him; have him listen to WWWMTO, and you get THE CARE AND FEEDING OF HUSBANDS. The WWWMTO, we give him the most insight. It also addresses, porn. I had no idea how destructive it was to the relationship.
Quote: Is it wrong for me to expect his physical touch? It doesn’t' even have to end in ML but is expecting more than a peck on the lips at night wrong? Is it wrong to expect him to hold me ever?
3 things here, I don’t have that T level to want to anymore, natures cruel trick, yours goes up and ours goes down. Touching means wanted him to ML. When you aren’t feeling good, you just want to hibernate.
Quote: He actually rolled up against me this morning and wanted to ML but he wanted anal sex - I did not - it is (sorry for the TMI) my TOM and I didn't want the added pain in that area!
Actually I would draw a line there, anal is not normal, and to me a perversion. Not to mention, all the stuff in your body that it is trying to get rid of in there. So you take someone with a delicate digestion and a defective immune system, which is what Chron’s is, it is an autoimmune disease. And he has no business asking for that. For example some people have gone abroad, and got dysentery and ended up losing they whole guts. So he is just tempting fate doing this.
Quote: I have tried to accept that this is just the way it is but what I want is intimacy to return to our marriage. I want him to make love to me - not bang me. It is like he is rushing everytime because he fears his erection is going to fail him but it ends up feeling like Sonic Sex instead of the Russian Tea Room kind of sex.
Has sex always been rushed or just these later years. Other thing that comes to mind is are you a night person and he is day. We had the same problem of night and day, and Sunday was the only day that worked out.
Quote: I feel like he wears himself out so he doesn't have to have sex with me and face erectile problem. I know that must just kill him too but when he goes out and plays 27 holes of golf and doesn't make love to me I am ANNOYED.
IF he can play that much golf, he can ML. Again, what time of day do you want it.
Quote: If he would just understand that I need his touch I would not be so upset. Would it hurt him to cuddle with me at night or to really kiss me at least once a day?
Can he do it without the fear of you wanting more, can you make sure you spend some time together on the couch each night.
Quote: I don't know how much you know about Chron's, Cemar, but one of the problems is running diarrhea and the severe stomach cramps that you associate with having a severe stomach virus. But this NEVER goes away. He can go to the bathroom 10 - 15 times a day. It interferes with how your body absorbs nutrients from your food. He is now taking B12 shots. Once when he was hospitalized the dr. told me he did not know where H's intestines were red, raw, and bleeding because he had diarrhea or if he had diarrhea because his intestines were red, raw, and bleeding. Jeez, which is it!
In Chron’s they are always inflamed, it just a matter of degree. If he is going that often he needs to do a food diary, and see which ones are causing the diarrhea. Even when I am at my worst it is no more than 7-10. I can always trace it to stress or a food that I should avoid. One big problem is, you become so limited on what you can eat, you rebel and eat stuff you should not. I am presently in a major flair and living on peaches and yams.
Quote: t seems to me that he doesn't want to touch me anymore because he thinks I will expect it to lead to LM. That would be nice but it would also be nice just to touch.
When he knows that for sure, and that a touch does not mean he wants to neck or make out. By the way, the daily recommended touching allowance is 10 touches a day.
Quote: Last Sunday and today my back has been KILLING me. I need a new chair. He told me today to go pick out any Lazyboy recliner that I wanted and buy it. I went looking but did not find what I wanted. Anyway, this evening he insisted I sit in his Lazyboy and we were watching "The Bourne Identity" on DVD. I told him that my body hurt all over and that I needed a good massage. No response on that statement. I could understand if I said I need back surgery - that he cannot do - but jeez - I think he could handle a back rub.
Touching is touching, get a vibrating chair pad
Quote: She did ask if we used sex toys - I said no. She suggested we do - not to sure about that.
Get the toys, you will get more out of it, he will be less threaten.
Quote: We had a good conversation. I told him that his total lack of interest hurt me deeply. I told him that I never saw desire for me on his face anymore and that I found that more hurtful than I could ever say.
Don’t you think he knows that, he just don’t know what to do.
Quote: He also said that for the past 3 weeks (which I already knew) that he had been feeling really bad and that he doesn't like to tell me. He said it serves no purpose. He explained that if everytime he felt bad he said "I feel bad" that he would be saying that everyday and all I would do is worry about him.
I too am in a flair, and did not say anything, did not have to, cause I changed my diet and she knew my current state.
You know this sith reminds me of my brother’s MS, he partial feeling in his legs, so he can only walk a short distance. So when he goes to the mall with his kids he rides 3-wheel scooter. Well people see this 6’4” 240 man riding a scooter, and think he is just lazy. In your case and the people here think he is normal and he is not. Consider if he had cancer, would you treat him different.
Quote: The toys are actually a very good idea. It can take some of the performance pressure off your husband and still reserve enough of the "good stuff" to share with hubby. ….. By reducing the amount of time he spends banging around, you reduce the potential for upset with his condition.
I agree, she would O many times with the toys, and them we would sing together. Get them on eBay, much cheaper.
Quote: Thanks for the help. NOPkins, not sure if I am ready to hop off and get some toys..- maybe I am more of a prude than I thought –
lets see prude Anal, ????
maybe not...HUM....something to consider. I just wonder if he would think I'd really lost my mind.
No, he would love to be able to satisfy you more, with less effort on his part.
Quote: I've wanted to go to counseling for a long time...I've just kept putting it off. Interestingly enough, the C. seems to think that Crowns is a result of stress and unresolved issues as a child.
BS, it is an autoimmune disease, just like diabetes
I did not impart that piece of information to DH though. I think that stress can aggravate the problem but I don't think it causes it!
I hope not
Quote: I went to a gumpaste flower class today with an internationally known artist and made a beautiful fire lily. It was a happy day and I need that. He does gripe about the money I spend on it, which I find annoying.
Set up the allowance thing, and you will avoid this current argument.
I did tell him yesterday that I would rather ML with him than make any flower, cake, afghan, etc. but in lou of ML I would do flowers as a substitute!
Does it feel better when you make those kinds of statements.
Poe, I know my DH like I know the back of my hand. He would not listen to it either so it would just be an exercise in futility. Porn is not a problem for us.
I understand that when he doesn't feel good that he might not want to ML but I know he PUSHES himself to workout, ride his Harley, go to work EVERYDAY no matter what, so I think he could push himself to touch me everyonce in a while. I am not asking for 24 hour sex-a-thon but a touch or a hug might make us both feel better.
As far as the anal sex goes - it is not my choice of LM styles - but I believe that it allows him to have a better erection so therefore he likes it every now and then. I go along with it because he makes him happy.
Quote: Has sex always been rushed or just these later years
No, it was never rushed. We had a great sex life in past years - The lovemaking was just about always Russian Tea Room sex - Carnival Cruise line dinner sex, starting out with the little tasty tidbits, advancing to the entre, finishing with dessert and more where that came from if once wasn't enough. Like I have said before, we used to have a fantastic sex life and I would like to have a small portion of that back!
Quote: IF he can play that much golf, he can ML
I am aware of that also. The problem is we have teenagers in the house - their rooms are right next to ours. It is a matter often of a lack of privacy. He did tell me that there are plenty of times he has the desire and feels "up to it" (no pun intended) but that the kids/company is always there.
Quote: Can he do it without the fear of you wanting more, can you make sure you spend some time together on the couch each night.
He is not by nature an affectionate person so to him to sit around and cuddle is not something he is interested in doing. He prefers to sit in his recliner when we are watching TV. I did just buy a new sofa so when it arrives maybe I can talk him into some sofa time.
Quote: When he knows that for sure, and that a touch does not mean he wants to neck or make out. By the way, the daily recommended touching allowance is 10 touches a day.
Oh, please. In my dreams. Now I can go up and touch him, hug him or kiss him and he is sometimes ok with that but not always.. He wills squirm away like a 4 year old.
Quote: Touching is touching, get a vibrating chair pad
Not sure what you're trying to tell me here but I have rubbed his back for years and sometimes a return favor would be the friendly thing to do!
Quote: Get the toys, you will get more out of it, he will be less threaten.
My gut reaction is that he would be major threatened if I turned up with sex toys. We have never used them in the past so I don't know how he would feel about them. I am not at all knowledgeable in this area - the closest I have come to them is the rotating penis that old lady shows on that sex show late at night. Personally it left me cold - don't know if it was the rotating penis or the old lady holding it - didn't do a thing for me.
Quote: Don’t you think he knows that, he just don’t know what to do.
I don't know whether he knows that or not. He has had a pretty good model for years on how I like affection. So I think in some ways he is like an infant - if it is right in front of him great but the instant it is gone he doesn't even realize it is gone nor does he miss it.
Quote: Consider if he had cancer, would you treat him different.
I have always been very concerned about my H health. He, himself will tell people that I am the reason that he has done as well as he has. I am constantly trying to improve his quality of life - but he does not have cancer - he has Crohns. I did talk to him last night about the barriers he puts up - anything that causes him stress he totally shuts out - even if his actions are the ones that originally causes stress for me and in turn stress for him. Does that make any sense? To him it is easier to totally shut out a problem than deal with it because it is easier on his stress/crohns.
Quote: Set up the allowance thing, and you will avoid this current argument.
Allowance - Please! I work - I don't need an allowance. H is sometimes something of a control freak and he gets all in an uproar when I spend money. I have tried to calmly point out that the entire amount I have spent on this new hobby doesn't even come up to the amount he payed for emblems for his Harley, not to mention the cost of the Harley in the first place, the insurance on it, the building it is in, the huge deck he built on the Harley house with the ramp, the leather jacket, yada yada. I couldn't care less what he spends on his Harley, buying a zero turning radius lawnmower, going over to the boat to play black jack - I really don't care - he works hard for his money but he often sees it that way - his money. Like I told him, I have taken up a new hobby to direct my desires and engery and it is nervy of him to gripe about it.
Quote: I did tell him yesterday that I would rather ML with him than make any flower, cake, afghan, etc. but in lou of ML I would do flowers as a substitute!
Does it feel better when you make those kinds of statements.
I would rather not have a reason to make those statements but when my darling hubby gets on a money roll he can be like a thumb on a bruise. I am not made of stone and my desire is all for him. But I am constantly shut out by him - I am not shutting him out. And it is not like he is unaware - I have made him aware. I stayed up ALL night last night decorating a cake and he asks me why. Why is because I feel frustration constantly with myself and him. I try to alleveate my frustration by making something creative. Sometimes I wonder if he has any inkling of my situation.
