Quote: Pen, can you prescribe something for all of us today? Drugs are our friends...
Heh, I just prescribed myself some weeding. Did it help? Nope, here I am again. I also have prescriptions for laundry and vacuuming available for tonight. Anyone? I thought not.
Re: e-mail - from a practical point of view, what difference does it make whether you have the password to his primary account or not? If he really wanted to talk to someone behind your back, he could get a free web-based yahoo/hotmail account faster than you can say "Jack Robinson", and you'd never know about it. So while the whole "trust" issue may have to be addressed, I'd let the e-mail thingey go, as it serves no purpose.
Quote: Re: e-mail - from a practical point of view, what difference does it make whether you have the password to his primary account or not? If he really wanted to talk to someone behind your back, he could get a free web-based yahoo/hotmail account faster than you can say "Jack Robinson", and you'd never know about it. So while the whole "trust" issue may have to be addressed, I'd let the e-mail thingey go, as it serves no purpose.
Pen
Yah...I wasn't actually suggesting that I need/want/desire/whatever his password.
My point was this (after noting that I may be totally confused about what's going on in this thread..!)...what's the "right" level of concern that one is supposed to express about something?
IOW...(again, I acknowledge a lack of understanding of history)...why is saying "cool, will he mind hanging out with you if I'm not there" an indication of lack of caring or concern for what one's spouse is doing?
Would "I'm uncomfortable with that friendship" be good? controlling? untrusting? what?
I'm actually NOT referring to anything specific going on in my sitch...I think it's more the swirl in my head...how am I (or anyone for that matter) supposed to respond if h said to me "I'm going out with FF mary for dinner next thursday" -- is "have a good time" an indication that I don't care?
I'm sure I'm not getting it...
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
I can only answer for myself here. If I were the person who was going to be interrogated (read: forced to hear about the fears from another person's perspective), I would wish for one simple thing.
For him/her to express themselves calmly and directly--using words that demonstrated caring but showed vulnerability. I think this is what Trish and everyone else was trying to tell me all along...
OK...I think your response has made it very clear that I missed some fundamental post along the way...I'm super sorry to have added churn here! (MUST read more carefully!). I think I jumped in when you were posting about Mr. W's response to your MF and I read into THAT without getting it from the beginning.
Now I'm remembering why I rarely post on these "very active, very long post, very engaging" threads.
Carry on
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Why, Wonder, that is one of the nicest things anyone has done! I did state that I wasn't touchy-feely. I'm not, until I get to know someone. I guess we ALL know each other pretty well now, don't we?
Thanks for your post. However, to me forgiveness is rather hard when I KNOW there is someone out there that hates my guts. It's kinda hard to say, "I forgive myself," when I picture someone spitting out whatever they are drinking to yell, "What the HELL?" if she heard such a ridiculous notion.
That forgiveness is NEVER coming. So, my own forgiveness is a bit pointless to me. I would try to make things right, however, I doubt that it will do me any good.
I am fully aware that I created this mess. Oh, if all involved could see me now. I wish they could see the person I have become. But, I constantly hear thru the grapevine how awful I am. I guess that is a reason I am so ultra sensitive to forgiving a spouse but not an OW. I mean, the details of the whole thing will go with me to my grave, but, this OM has a heaping share of the blame. Oh, I WANT for him to be forgiven. I truly think he should be. He was as lost in a fog as I was. I know he never wanted to hurt his wife. I honestly believe that he loved her. We were just 2 people that came together at a time when we both needed something that we couldn't understand. Any other time and place, this wouldn't have happened.
Oh, gosh, it sounds like I am trying to make excuses. Absolutely not. I wake up to this every day and wish to God I could change it. I guess I beat myself up enough. To think of someone out there saying, "Good! You should!" just makes it that much worse. If that's even possible.
Anyway- I wanted to jump in on the whole caring/not caring issue. In Betsey's example, I think that if throughout the relationship Mr. W was outwardly caring and loving, his suggestion that she go out with the OM would be looked at much differently. But, when you are lacking those things, it is much easier to examine things like this under a microscope. Right then he goes from being a secure man that simply trusts his wife to a man who doesn't give a [censored] what she's doing.
Yes, Betsey. Our H's are MUCH alike. Hopefully they won't end up next to each other someday at some bar, trying to drink away the great girls that got away!
God, this self-examination is taxing. But, I do need to keep revisiting these issues until I make my peace with them. See? Even that rings false. Who am I to "make peace" with anything?
Quote: Pen! And I had thought you had forgotten about me!
Hi Pam,
No, I hadn’t forgotten about you at all, quite the opposite. I just sometimes need a day or two to process things, especially if they really make me think – and your post did. Sorry about the delay!
Quote: Funny you should make the comment about being less judgemental. Me too. Except it all falls back under that whole "self serving" issue, doesn't it? It is far easier to be less judgemental when you yourself do not wish to be judged. Well, on the surface, anyway. I know that I had to fall hard to get myself back up. And, I am willing to take whatever anyone has to throw at me. So, for me, and I suspect you as well, it is not a matter of deflecting judgement. It is a matter of saying, "I was wrong to be that way." The old saying about walking a mile in someone else's shoes really does hit home, doesn't it
Outch, outch, and outch again– that’s it EXACTLY. If I were a plant, I’d now be growing an inch a minute with all these new realizations. ::wry grin::
And I also wanted to say your account of your personal sitch is perfectly lucid, and to me, perfectly understandable. It’s not hard imagining myself in the same place (something to watch out for in the future). But, as with Betsey, it might have been what it took to forge you into the person you are today, and no one can say that isn’t something extraordinary.
I think your honest and insightful (not to mention soul-searching) posts are doing a lot of people a world of good right now, and I just wanted to say you're a very courageous woman.
Quote: Thanks for your post. However, to me forgiveness is rather hard when I KNOW there is someone out there that hates my guts. It's kinda hard to say, "I forgive myself," when I picture someone spitting out whatever they are drinking to yell, "What the HELL?" if she heard such a ridiculous notion.
That forgiveness is NEVER coming. So, my own forgiveness is a bit pointless to me. I would try to make things right, however, I doubt that it will do me any good.
Pam, that does it - you must be my long-lost twin seperated at birth. I know exactly what you mean. Forgiving onesself can seem pretty hollow if the 'injured party' is still very far from forgiving us, and perhaps never will. For example, I know that, no matter how much the children like me, some part of them will always hope I'll drop off the edge of the earth so that Mommy and Daddy can get back together again. It's only natural. *sigh* I did have a (rather awkward) talk with my H's Ex-wife, in which I told her I appreciated her (flawless) behaviour to me when we met, and ever since, that I knew it must have been hard, and that I was sorry for the pain she must have gone through. She responded by saying that she'd wanted what was best for the kids, that it hadn't been easy, but that I was a nice person and that everything else was now in the past. I hope that means she's forgiven me - but I still haven't forgiven myself.
I've lurked here but just registered yesterday. This thread is so awesome to read! You guys seem truly interested in looking hard at the truth, which I'm finding out not everyone wants to do.
As for the forgiveness issue, I can't agree strongly enough - it's tough! I've always found that forgiving myself can be one of the hardest things to do. but it's so important to forgive yourself for your mistakes - even if other people aren't ready to forgive you yet.
but it's also so important to forgive others. If you carry all the anger around or waste your time waiting for an apology or explanation that might not come, it's not them that you're hurting but yourself. It doesn't mean saying whatever they did was OK, but we do have to try to let it go for ourselves.
I hope this makes sense. I'm pretty new to this.
God, please grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
Gosh I've just been catching up Its taking a while but has been well worth it and made me think. Everyones honesty and insightfulness has blown me away. It is all very powerful and really makes you look at things from a different direction.
The first thing I want to comment on is forgiveness. I have forgiven H for PA but I haven't forgiven OW. Why? Well I guess the way she treated me. She went out of her way to end my M. I'm not sayimg she was the only factor I realise H and I had issues that we brushed under the carpet but she did a lot of underhanded things and when I asked to talk to her about things she just laughed at me and told me what a terrible wife I was and how she would nake H life so much better (RIGHT) So should I forgive her. Something I really need to think about.
WONDER
Quote: Telling someone they have hurt you is necessary boundary setting, but repeatedly throwing your pain in someone's face can be controlling and manipulative and not loving. Not dealing with our hurt causes us to hurt others, plain and simple.
GOsh that really made me sit up and listen. I never really realised this but if the boot was on the other foot. Thank you.
Quote: My WAH--who is well described by what's been written here--is now making an unseen-to-date effort to do things we'd agreed to and is repeating the exact behavior patterns of his 4 previous reconnection attempts. Yet is still pursuing divorce and living with OW. What would you all make of this? Closure? Friendship? Reconnection? Just curious what "the other side" thinks.
Are our H related? This is exactly what I'm going through. As H says hes not ready to give me any answers yet. So what do we do. Keep DBing?
BETSY
Quote: express themselves calmly and directly--using words that demonstrated caring but showed vulnerability.
Ah Betsy as always words of wisdom. Thanks for making me think as always. I will think about what you said on my thread, start handing problems as I would in business.
Ok I'm off to spend weekend with MIL and SIL and maybe H (if he turns up!!!!!!!) Have a good one and keep up the thought provoking convos.
God bless
Always questioning???
Not always sad!!!
Joanne
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is to not stop questioning. Albert Einstein
