I would first apologize that you feel jumped on. I would say that from your limited posts, myself and others drew some conclusions that may not have been true.
It looks like I too hit a nerve with you. The good side is at least you got to vent a little, and we all know a little bit more about your situation. The bad side is that you are now probably a bit defensive. Again I apologize.
From your letter, you sound like a very passionate person. Being a passionate person, this limbo is probably very hard to deal with.
Reading your letter, I got 3 things from it:
1. This situation is now all about you and what you want to do, not really about anything else:
I have been a loyal and extremely devoted wife for 13 years, and this is the only time in 40 years I have been indecisive about ONE SINGLE THING, much less my M.
Rest assured, I know that my M is is gridlock because of MY indecision. I know that!
I HEAR YOU that I should be fighting for the M too! YES! And I DID, on and off for years, but sometimes one person is not able to fight any longer, for whatever reasons, and the other must pick up the cause!.
You say my H is fighting "just by being here." Yes, that SHOULD be "good enough" to win me promptly back, I agree! But it's somehow not
I am TELLING YOU that if at ANY time during this year he said "I want this marriage more than anything, Annalise, and I know we can make it work" I would probably not be in such ambivalence.
It sounds like you think you carried the load for 13 years and you are now tired and wish him to carry the load. Which leads to #2.
2. You have some issues that really bother you about your husband:
But even when my affair just started, he had no real conviction about our potential to start anew.
I have confronted him about that, and he says "Oh, it's not that I don't want you or the M back, I do, I'm just fed up with us like you are, and I don't want to "work on" it anymore, and I'm just not the type of guy who has all that much conviction or passion about ANYTHING.
That is a PERSONALITY issue, it will not change, and I am not absolutely positive that I want to live with that half-heartedness for the rest of my life, not to mention the other marital "issues" that we may or may not be able to resolve.
Pessismism, for example... at one year it is charming! At five years it is only irksome! But living with pessimism for 13 years becomes more like a MENTAL HEALTH RISK.
So I would ask, is your husband really ambivalent about this whole thing? It almost sounds like this is your way of trying to get his attention focused on you. I am not a psychotherapist or psychology student, I am just reading what you have written.
3. It sounds as if your attraction to this other person is a moot point, because he won't leave his W for you.
I pleaded with OM to consider leaving his wife!(no kids in either marriage).
So I guess I would wonder why you would carry something like this on when it sounds as if it will lead to no where. Is this just a pleasant diversion for you?
I can relate to you a bit. My main complaint in my marriage was my wife's lack of passion. It really bugged me, and she was pretty easy to get along with (read ambivalent) too. I found out in the end she had that passion, just not for me. Hey there is someone for everyone right? She also took charge of her life after she left, and did all of the stuff she only used to talk about too. I am happy for her, I just think she could've done the same with me. Obviously she couldn't.
Yes, the limbo is VERY hard to deal with. Not just because I'm "passionate" as you say, but because like many women I tend to center my life around my relationship, so when that area of life is out of whack, everything seems awful.
"This situation is now all about you and what you want to do":
Yes, I can see how you would get that idea... being in a crisis does make me sound more narcissistic than I really am. But, the situation really IS "all about me" at this point, because H has already made his wishes clear (he wants to try to reconcile) and OM has already made his wishes clear (he would like to continue to be invoved with me in a minimal way if I wish, but will not leave hs wife for me). So, it's "all about me" because I must decide what to do, they have already decided. The chances of OM changing his mind about what to do are somewhere between slim and none. However, the chances of my H changing his mind are pretty good... he will eventually tire of waiting for me and move on, as is understandable.
"It sounds like you think you carried the load for 13 years and you are now tired and wish him to carry the load."
Well, we both carried the "relationship load." I am the one who has always attended to the quality of the relationship. But he has always been the first to apologize and pull us back together after fights. He says he is done now, championing the cause of "us" and that I must return on my own, or not at all... he will not "pull me back in." I understand that, and agree that dynamic has to change, but WOW, he sure picked a hell of a time to take a stance about that!
"You have some issues that really bother you about your husband"
Yes, I do. About my H, and about our R. He's completely WONDERFUL in many ways, and so is our R.
But, there are some incompatibilities and some contentions, and some things missing, that bother me greatly. And now, since being with OM, who is COMPLETELY different than H, and who I am different WITH, these things about H and my M bother me more! Now, through this affair, it feels like I have pinpointed exactly what things are missing in my R with H, and do not want to live without that anymore. Life is short! I have just turned 40 and am realizing that! I want to be very careful I do not "settle" for continuing with a M that is GOOD but not great, and seems to resist being great.
Communication with H is pretty phenomenal, so I have talked to H many times about the things I need from him and my M. But, some of the problems are rooted in fundamental personality differences, that really can't be changed. And some of the problems CAN be changed...
I have always felt that the "answer" for us is to WORK ON our marriage ! To at least SOLVE the problems that can be solved, in an organized, concrete way.
But, he HATES "working on" the relationship in this way. He prefers to just talk and think about problems, hoping that will help over time. Of course, it rarely did. So then I would keep bringing up my concerns, wanting to agree on a solution. He perceived that as "demanding."
Things never really getting solved made me irritable, which made him retreat and "walk on eggs." We both got resentful, even though we continued to have a basically good, happy marriage.
H is a brilliant analytical psychotherapist who is always second guessing my intentions and motives, putting my concerns in a poor light, which makes talking about things rather complex and maddening!
H is a thinker, not a DO-er. He thinks the way to deal with problems is THINK about them until "new sets of ideas" MAYBE emerge and MAYBE lead (eventually) to a natural change in behavior. As you may guess, not many M problems have actually been SOLVED that way.
I am the first to agree with him that we should not go around throwing band-aids on problems and avoiding deeper reflection on them, at that I should be able to "tolerate some frustration" as he always says, but at SOME POINT, action needs to occur! Our counselor could not even get him to do the homework. Add to that, he hates to write things down or have to remember anything, so even IF I can get him to agree on an actual solution to some concern (which is nearly impossible) he will rarely follow thru.
YES, I know that it does not take two to save a marriage. I KNOW I can re-read DB and save it myself. But, you know what? I don't want to. Because THAT is one of my issues!... I have always wanted us to be more of a "we," more of a team, to have that feeling of "this is what we are doing and believe in and stand for AS A COUPLE." He has always says he wants more of that attitude between us too, but his style of relating just doesn't support that super-connected type of R.
H says he wants to get back together, and at first his stipulation was that he REFUSED to "work on" anything. YES! Still! Even though this attitude eventually drove his W into the arms of OM, that was still his attitude. He said "We have been working on this M for 13 years. Working on it is not working. Let's try NOT working on it!"
I see his point... I am exhausted from our conflicts, just like him. But, for Christ's sake, I just had an affair... I think we need to work on some stuff! I am NOT COMFORTABLE going back into the M without him being willing to do that.
Just TODAY he and I had a relationship talk, and he agreed that IF we reconcile he WILL consider committing to some form of (normal!) problem solving with me. That is major progress. It probably happened because I have remained FIRM about not going back to the M without some idea of how we will address mutual or individual concerns.
Lesson: do not marry a psychotherapist, unless you want to be driven crazy.
"So I would ask, is your husband really ambivalent about this whole thing? It almost sounds like this is your way of trying to get his attention focused on you."
No, I do not think he is truly ambivalent. Just super discouraged. I think he is WILLING to move on from this M now, which was never the case before the affair, but he doesn't WANT to move on, ideally. He's more willing to let us go now because our current separartion of sorts has made the whole M seem worse than it's really been. And, his ego is pretty crushed. I mean, his W is in love with NOT JUST ANY OM... this OM was sort of a boyfriend just before I started dating H 13 years ago. I was in love with OM then! H had to win me from OM back then, which was not easy. I loved H, too, but the truth is, H won by default... OM did not want me "seriouly" back then, either, because I had two children and he did not think he could step parent well. H knew he won by default. So, if I reconcile with H, it is again by default. H has only mentioned this a few times, but I know it bothers him. That fact plus the strain of separation, plus our imperfect M must make the idea of D seem more reasonable to him than before.
Did I do this affair just to get his attention? At first, that was PART of it, I think. Waking him up. Maybe even a little spite, for what he had done with cyber sex. But very quickly, all that was no longer an issue. It was all about feelings for OM.
"It sounds as if your attraction to this other person is a moot point, because he won't leave his W for you."
Yes, in a practical sense, it's moot point.
"So I guess I would wonder why you would carry something like this on when it sounds as if it will lead to no where. Is this just a pleasant diversion for you?"
At first it was a very pleasant diversion, and remains so, but for quite awile it has also been a MISERABLE diversion, because I am in love with OM and every contact reminds me that I cannot be with this man I have TWICE in my life wanted to be with. Like you imply, there's no sane reason to "carry on" something that is going nowhere. I guess I just do it out of foolish hope and because I have some things to say to OM that have so far gone unsaid. Once I do that, I hope I will be more motivated to break it off and try again with H.
"I can relate to you a bit. My main complaint in my marriage was my wife's lack of passion."
I hear you! People act like passion is a nice "extra" to have in an M, but for some of us, it's quite essential.
"I found out in the end she had that passion, just not for me. Hey there is someone for everyone right? She also took charge of her life after she left, and did all of the stuff she only used to talk about too. I am happy for her, I just think she could've done the same with me. Obviously she couldn't."
You sound like you have a healthy attitude about it. Passion and the drive toward self-actualization... not impossible to sustain in a long M, but hard!!!
I just KNOW that if I leave H, he is gonna suddenly loose weight, get turned on by life, probably start his own business or something, and become this vital, self-empowered guy like my OM. Life is ironic! Trying to maintain my sense of humor.
I have to say I enjoyed your post alot. Glad we are talking. By the way, I too am 40.
Reading your post, the impression I get is that while your husband MAY want to work on your relationship, he isn't really committed to it. I also think that you still love him alot, and if he would make a fundamental change you would be happy.
It seems to me that if any DB'ing is going to happen here, it is going to be done by you, but you don't want to....this is a sticky wicket isn't it? From the tone of your letter, I think that you may already be doing it though.
By letting this go on for so long, maybe your husband has grown "used to it" and sees no reason to work on it. Maybe you need to change the playing field a bit? To do that you would have to commit to wanting to try again though.
By the way, you spoke of the affair in the past tense:
But, for Christ's sake, I just had an affair... I think we need to work on some stuff!
I would also point out that the OM has had 2 chances to be with you, and turned you down twice, do you need strike 3 before it sinks in? It sounds to me like you are very convenient for him; he keeps his own marriage and has you to fill in the gaps in it. You are doing the same thing too. That kind of thing can't go on forever, but in my experience the man can carry it on MUCH longer than a woman can. Do you think the OM is as emotionally invested in you as you are in him?
I am alot like you, think about something, come to a conclusion and then ACT. Drives me crazy when people don't act too.
So you and I have thought about his....I have concluded:
a. The other man doesn't want you - or he would be with you b. You still love your husband and are currently DBing c. Your husband is a thinker, but doesn't know what to do
Do you think that is accurate?
Possible Conclusions: a. You let the OM thing go completely-going nowhere anyway b. You decide if you can do this DB c. You come up with a plan for the DB
Possible Actions
Depends on what your conclusions are.
Can you tell I am an engineer? Logical thought helps me day to day, but tends to kill me in relationships!
Quote: WOW, you people jump to a lot of conclusions and so far are a very judgemental lot!
for no other reason than they are hurting as a result of their spouses infidelity or leaving. Don't take it personally it's mere projection. (ok and some who just like to grasp onto any "concept" they read about)
I understand your plight but admit that there are an awful lot of contradictions in your posts.
I don't have time to point them out right now but they are there and many of them are things that may be keeping you in this "cruise control" state.
I know you are not impressed with the message board nor should you be. Michelle doens't write this stuff (and doesn't read much of it either)...the hurting often desperate folks who've read her books do. We don't hold degrees and haven't written any books we are just people who've walked (or are walking) a difficult path.
Sad to say that though your insights as a near waw and the betraying partner (sorry if those terms hurt but at least I wont call you the "whore" you called yourself in a post to another) will for the most part not be heard but instead invalidated (at least attmepted to by those same judgin conclusion drawing folks you mentioned).
Yes, you are right your feelings for om are very real...there is no switch you can flip and you will not suddenly "wake up" or return from the "alien ship" as so many like to call it. You are already awake and pleasantly with both feet right here on earth...you've just got to decide if your going to live completely one way or the other.
The limbo you currently reside in is of your own making, you are the only one who can leave it. It is not (nor should it be) up to h to sway your decision it should be YOUR decision.
There is a thread floating around (I believe in the new commers forum) called "calling all walkaways". It has been posted to by several was and there are some new commers with questions you may be able to help them with.
You mention having read db years ago, why not take another peak. You don't have to want to save your m to spend the few hours refreshing your memory on the book. It may also help you to make a decision one way or the other as well.
YES, I do still love my H a lot and he loves me very, very much. And if we solve a bunch of chronic little problems, and learn how to accept our personality differences, you're right... I would be happy.
You say it sounds like my H is not really committed to "working on" the M. Yeah true. If I accused him of that he would say something like "I am working on it all the time!" He means by himself, in his head! Ugggh!
You're right, the "nuts and bolts" relationship fixing is going to have to come from me. Guess I need to start pretty soon in earnest. But wait... I think I hear hoofbeats... I think it is the OM coming to get me, on his white stallion!
I have given OM one year to "come around," so I figure the least I can do is give my M that long to come around, once I do start trying "for real." Do you think it is realistic to expect to see improvement within one year after a separation and an A? I wonder...
But, I do not want to be too patient about how long to try, because I do not want to commit the "sunk cost error" in logic. In psychology, that is the error that goes, "because I have sunk so much time (or money or effort or whatever) in this thing, I should keep doing that!" Casinos in Las Vegas get rich off of people making the "sunk cost error" in logic... people throwing good money after bad... to try to recoup some "perceived investment." Not smart. I will not hesitate to D after one more year of trying, if the M is not taking off.
"By the way, you spoke of the affair in the past tense"
I know, it's because it feels like the A is almost certainly over, and that what I am doing now is dragging out the "closure" as long as humanly possible.
I have not seen or spoken over the phone with OM in 3 months, 2 days, 4 hours, 13 minutes, and 2.9 seconds. I put a stop to the meetings and calls because it got to the point where it was just too painful for me to see him go home to his W. Even just hearing his voice on the phone was too gut wrenching. We only e-mail now.
OM is not happy about that, but he's not suffering either. He prefers our relationship ultra limited for two reasons... one, he is paranoid of being seen in public with me, and two, he wants to avoid "getting so carried away that we ruin our current lives over this thing." Which of course directly conflicts with my GOAL of getting carried away and ruining our current lives over this thing.
"I would also point out that the OM has had 2 chances to be with you, and turned you down twice, do you need strike 3 before it sinks in?"
I know! My H says to me "I cannot believe you have thrown yourself on this same sword again!" Freudian undertones of that comment aside, I CAN believe it... in fact, if a third chance for us ever came up later in life, say we were both old and widowed, I would try again! Reminds me of that Oscar Wilde quote "There is nothing like the devotion of a married woman, and it's something her husband knows nothing about." Bad, I know. I even discussed open M with my H at one point, because I do not want to be without OM in my life. I still think about that option sometimes, but it does not fit in with my "Barbie and Ken" up-bringing. If my parents had bought me TWO Ken dolls, I might be able to picture it better somehow.
"It sounds to me like you are very convenient for him"
More so than sliced bread. I have tried being INconvenient, but then he backs away even further. He did not seek this A out. I pursued him. Blind-sighted him, actually. His W lacks passion, which just FLOORS me because this is THE most gorgeous, passionate, sensual, creative, inspiring, earthshattering man on the planet. But then again, he cannot understand how my H could be somewhat lacking in the passion department either. I wish "passion" was the only reason I wanted to be with OM, he would be easier to give up, but there are other reasons.
His passionless M really bothers OM, but unfortunately for me, that is her only flaw in his eyes. He briefly considered leaving her for me, but he was too torn up about it being "too selfish." He was raised Catholic, like me, and so it was not just his W I was competing with, but his guilt. OM even had guilt about poaching me from my H, because of the situation 13 years ago. Plus, this is his third M, and he does not want to fail again. Plus he hates change. Plus, he has moral and even political barriers to divorce. He could not BE any harder to steal, unless maybe his wife just had newborn triplets.
Am I going to get flamed by someone for saying that I would "steal" a married man if I could, on a divorce busting website? I hope not. I almost think all is fair in love and war. Like in the movie TROY. Prince Paris sent entire nations to war, sent thousands upon thousands of men to their bloody deaths just so he could steal a married woman. I have to say, I almost thought he was justified. C'mon, he LOVED her for God's sake!
"in my experience the man can carry it on MUCH longer than a woman can."
Yeah, they can, because men are not "all about" relationship, like women tend to be. That's the social explanation, but there's also a biological one...there are actual physical brain differences between men and women that make it easier for men to neatly "compartmentalize" things and keep them in perspective, and be less emotional about them. Lucky bastards.
"Do you think the OM is as emotionally invested in you as you are in him?"
In a word, No! He says he loves me and I believe him. But, love and even lust... these are not the THE deciding factors for most married MEN, agreed? For women, yes, because we're nuts, we tend to follow our hearts, but for men, I think they prefer to maintain their status quo R, unless it's a pretty bad M all around. Statistically, it is much more common (easier) for a man to steal a married woman than it is for a woman to steal a married man.
OM SWEARS he is as tortured as me over our situation, but that can't be. If he were as tortured as me, he would be D by now, and we would have a R, not a "situation."
No, I can't truly claim to be currently DBing, for two reasons. ONE, if I were SERIOUS about DBing, I would be totally done with OM, not dragging out the closure phase. Agree? TWO, when I DO manage to wrap it up with OM I want to try to reconcile with H, but I am not sure I want to "DB" per se. I have to read the book again, it's been years, but if I remember correctly I really thought a lot of the principles were brilliant, but some of them did not sit well with me, and so I'm not sure yet if I'm a good "DB" candidate... I think if you follow only parts of a "method," it's much less likely to work, and can maybe even do more harm than good.
By the way, now that I have spilled almost my entire guts, what the heck is YOUR story, sinjin? If your W is already a lost cause, why ya here? Just curious.
"Your husband is a thinker, but doesn't know what to do"
It's not that he doesn't "know" it's worse than that... it's more like he does not even value the pro-active stance toward life! Does that make sense? Action is not his thing, and to boot, he's kinda proud of that! It's almost like he sees taking action and being decisive as a poor substiitute for thinking.
H is cognitive beyond belief...like the professor on Gilligan's Island, or Frazier Krane on Cheers, get it now? And this is only ONE of our incompatibilities. Don't get me started on the whole slew of them, or it will make this monster post look like a footnote.
Yes, I know OM has to go. I had a dream once that he was half rat and half boy, a bizarre RatBoy creature, and I threw him in a lake to try to drown him, but it turned out he was amphibian! HE WON'T DIE!!!!
I need to kill him, I know (figuratively speaking) but I must do it when I'm ready, or I will just fall right back into OM's arms or inbox when the going gets rough with H, and I do not want to put myself, my H, or OM through this crap again. Especially not myself.
How I ended up with Frazier Krane I have no idea... he was supposed to end up with some icy Lillith, not emotional Rebecca! Frazier and Rebecca... imagine! That's us. I guess opposites attract, and then proceed to drive eachother nuts.
VERY insightful of you to point out that "projection" goes on a lot in these types of support forums. I realized that was exactly what was happening, but was not cool-headed enough to let it ride, nor did I want to call it what it was..."projection"... and have you all think I was some snotty psychology student who was going to start throwing around a lot of psychobabble.
I do realize there may be some "contradictions" in my posts, as you say. I am in a state of intense conflict, like most others here seem to be, so that's to be expected.
As far as my "cruise control" state... YES it's a problem... just like the many here trying to DB their butts off for years and getting nowhere are also in a kind of "cruise control" at this point, if they are honest with themselves. DB is great, but at some point maybe another type of DB is sorely needed... Denial Busting.
My cruise control is partly a stall, I realize!... but it's also got some wisdom behind it. It is better not to act until you can act with convinction. Some here are DBing with their hearts but not their brains, or with their brains, but with no heart. That's not for me...
When I try again with H, I want my whole self to be in it, and that can't be possible till I'm totally DONE with OM, and you can't be done until your... done. In situations like these, if you force a decision, it will come back and bite you in the ass, sooner or later.
No, I don't mind much being called "THE betraying partner" even though my H betrayed me first, with cyber sex. Although I do think the term "betraying partner" is rather judgemental and naive. Please don't take offense, let me explain what I mean by that...
There are all SORTS of ways to betray a marriage. Infidelity is only one of them, and yet it is the one everyone obsesses over. MANY MANY times, when a partner has an EXTRA-MARITAL RELATIONSHIP (which is the non-judgemental way to say it!) it is on the heels of some other type of Betrayal in the M. Betrayal begets betrayal. And yet the one who "cheats" is the ONLY one who ever gets labeled the "betrayer." And that's not an accurate, fair or intelligent way to look at it.
In many (I would guess MOST) cases of "infidelity" if you look closely at the M or talk with the "betrayer" you will easily see that BOTH spouses have "betrayed" eachother.
There are many types of sexual and NON SEXUAL Betrayals that can lead to affairs. I am not saying they "should" led to A's, or that it's "okay"... NO! ... But they DO lead to affairs.
Just a few Examples of such "precipitating" betrayals:
Previous EMR (extra marital relation)
Lying
Keeping Secrets
Refusing to Communicate
Spousal/Child Abuse
Alcoholism
Drug Abuse
Pornography (if not ok w/spouse)
Neglecting your Health
Neglecting your Appearance
Gambling
Verbal Abuse
And the GrandDaddy of them all: Relationship Neglect
Yes, folks. That is a betrayal. We promise to "love and honor" and R neglect goes contrary to that.
The point I am trying to make is that few if any spouses can afford to cast the first "betrayal" stone. Shouldn't it really be: the betraying spouseS ? Everyone goes around saying "it takes TWO to cause an affair, and TWO to fix it." Yes! So maybe we should stop labeling just one person, or start labeling both. Just my opinion.
"you've just got to decide if your going to live completely one way or the other"
Exactly, that's a good way to put it.
"The Limbo you currently reside in is of your own making, you are the only one who can leave it."
Of course!
"It is not (nor should it be) up to h to sway your decision it should be YOUR decision."
Of course. If you read my posts carefully, you will see that I never implied that it is up to H nor that it should be. I was pointing out that patience can and does *sometimes* (SOMETIMES!) slow down resolution of things. That's a fact, not an opinion. Don't make me submit case studies, now! Saying that something DOES happen... or might be happing in my case... that is a world different than saying it SHOULD happen.
You guys can't have it both ways, sorry. You can't say "Oh, look, DB methods can sway your spouse! Try it!" And then turn around and say "Shame on you Annalise for even suggesting that your spouse could or should do anything to sway you." JEEZE... talk about an INCONSISTENCY! Either Infidelity is SWAYABLE or not. Make up you minds before you all drive me batty.
"calling all walkaways".
Now see! There's another label I'm not too fond of. That one is REALLY judgemental. Perhaps its meant to induce guilt. "Walkaway"... makes me sound SUBVERSIVE, or like I I don't care a whit about my M, like I was just loading laundry into the machine one day and decided "Hey! I think I'll leave my husband of 13 years! No particular reason, I just think I'll Walk Away!"
Come on now... Why can't Michelle just say "Calling all Spouses Considering Separation or Divorce?" I'll tell you why... Because she wants to convey that we are doing something WRONG or MISGUIDED by thinking about D. Well, I DO appreciate her view on that! It's not the ONLY worthwhile view, but I think it's an interesting and valid view , or I wouldn't be here.
But, I think those views could be presented in a way that does not resort to name calling, and being called a "walkaway" is teetering on the brink of name-calling. Thanks, but I'm afraid I will have to pass on that article till I stop being pissed about the title, which may be awhile.
I am trying to make up my mind whether this site may be too fanatical anti-divorce for where I am at RIGHT NOW, which is in limbo.
"You mention having read db years ago"
I did. I was mostly impressed.
"why not take another peak. You don't have to want to save your m to spend the few hours refreshing your memory on the book. It may also help you to make a decision one way or the other as well."
VERY insightful of you to point out that "projection" goes on a lot in these types of support forums. I realized that was exactly what was happening, but was not cool-headed enough to let it ride, nor did I want to call it what it was..."projection"... and have you all think I was some snotty psychology student who was going to start throwing around a lot of psychobabble.
I do realize there may be some "contradictions" in my posts, as you say. I am in a state of intense conflict, like most others here seem to be, so that's to be expected.
As far as my "cruise control" state... YES it's a problem... just like the many here trying to DB their butts off for years and getting nowhere are also in a kind of "cruise control" at this point, if they are honest with themselves. DB is great, but at some point maybe another type of DB is sorely needed... Denial Busting.
My cruise control is partly a stall, I realize!... but it's also got some wisdom behind it. It is better not to act until you can act with convinction. Some here are DBing with their hearts but not their brains, or with their brains, but with no heart. That's not for me...
When I try again with H, I want my whole self to be in it, and that can't be possible till I'm totally DONE with OM, and you can't be done until your... done. In situations like these, if you force a decision, it will come back and bite you in the ass, sooner or later.
No, I don't mind much being called "THE betraying partner" even though my H betrayed me first, with cyber sex. Although I do think the term "betraying partner" is rather judgemental and naive. Please don't take offense, let me explain what I mean by that...
There are all SORTS of ways to betray a marriage. Infidelity is only one of them, and yet it is the one everyone obsesses over. MANY MANY times, when a partner has an EXTRA-MARITAL RELATIONSHIP (which is the non-judgemental way to say it!) it is on the heels of some other type of Betrayal in the M. Betrayal begets betrayal. And yet the one who "cheats" is the ONLY one who ever gets labeled the "betrayer." And that's not an accurate, fair or intelligent way to look at it.
In many (I would guess MOST) cases of "infidelity" if you look closely at the M or talk with the "betrayer" you will easily see that BOTH spouses have "betrayed" eachother.
There are many types of sexual and NON SEXUAL Betrayals that can lead to affairs. I am not saying they "should" led to A's, or that it's "okay"... NO! ... But they DO lead to affairs.
Just a few Examples of such "precipitating" betrayals:
Previous EMR (extra marital relation)
Lying
Keeping Secrets
Refusing to Communicate
Spousal/Child Abuse
Alcoholism
Drug Abuse
Pornography (if not ok w/spouse)
Neglecting your Health
Neglecting your Appearance
Gambling
Verbal Abuse
And the GrandDaddy of them all: Relationship Neglect
Yes, folks. That is a betrayal. We promise to "love and honor" and R neglect goes contrary to that.
The point I am trying to make is that few if any spouses can afford to cast the first "betrayal" stone. Shouldn't it really be: the betraying spouseS ? Everyone goes around saying "it takes TWO to cause an affair, and TWO to fix it." Yes! So maybe we should stop labeling just one person, or start labeling both. Just my opinion.
"you've just got to decide if your going to live completely one way or the other"
Exactly, that's a good way to put it.
"The Limbo you currently reside in is of your own making, you are the only one who can leave it."
Of course!
"It is not (nor should it be) up to h to sway your decision it should be YOUR decision."
Of course. If you read my posts carefully, you will see that I never implied that it is up to H nor that it should be. I was pointing out that patience can and does *sometimes* (SOMETIMES!) slow down resolution of things. That's a fact, not an opinion. Don't make me submit case studies, now! Saying that something DOES happen... or might be happing in my case... that is a world different than saying it SHOULD happen.
You guys can't have it both ways, sorry. You can't say "Oh, look, DB methods can sway your spouse! Try it!" And then turn around and say "Shame on you Annalise for even suggesting that your spouse could or should do anything to sway you." JEEZE... talk about an INCONSISTENCY! Either Infidelity is SWAYABLE or not. Make up you minds before you all drive me batty.
"calling all walkaways".
Now see! There's another label I'm not too fond of. That one is REALLY judgemental. Perhaps its meant to induce guilt. "Walkaway"... makes me sound SUBVERSIVE, or like I I don't care a whit about my M, like I was just loading laundry into the machine one day and decided "Hey! I think I'll leave my husband of 13 years! No particular reason, I just think I'll Walk Away!"
Come on now... Why can't Michelle just say "Calling all Spouses Considering Separation or Divorce?" I'll tell you why... Because she wants to convey that we are doing something WRONG or MISGUIDED by thinking about D. Well, I DO appreciate her view on that! It's not the ONLY worthwhile view, but I think it's an interesting and valid view , or I wouldn't be here.
But, I think those views could be presented in a way that does not resort to name calling, and being called a "walkaway" is teetering on the brink of name-calling. Thanks, but I'm afraid I will have to pass on that article till I stop being pissed about the title, which may be awhile.
I am trying to make up my mind whether this site may be too fanatical anti-divorce for where I am at RIGHT NOW, which is in limbo.
"You mention having read db years ago"
I did. I was mostly impressed.
"why not take another peak. You don't have to want to save your m to spend the few hours refreshing your memory on the book. It may also help you to make a decision one way or the other as well."
I just want to quickly let you know that I am very impressed with you.
I did not imply to label you a "walkaway" christ I've been called that myself here a few times and I wasn't nor have the intention to walkaway.
I can probably relate to your plight in more ways than most. Only difference being I didn't have an extra marital relationship but my h did.
Your posts are very well versed and well thought out. I can only stop by for quick bites from time to time so I appologize if I overlooked something.
Do not be so quickly turned off by this place. Though there are an awful lot of nuts here there are also some very wise people that will do their best to help you in whatever decision you make, even if that is to divorce.
I know you are knew here and some of the name calling or disapproval of the cheating spouse may offend you. But you have to understand, most of the people here are trying to save their marriage. Unlike you and your openess with your H, many of us were lied to, hence the 'betrayal' aspect.
I agree it is not wrong to THINK about divorce or separating, but is is WRONG to have an affair with someone else while you are married. It is something that the cheating spouse should feel guilty about. It is immoral after all. However, I truly believe that BOTH of the partners contribute to the factors that lead to affairs. It is not like they woke up and said hey I want to have an affair and leave my spouse. It must take a long time to come to that point. So if one partner is truly unhappy, should they not communicate their needs and feelings to the other? To see if the issues can be resolved BEFORE cheating? I know that in reality this is rarely the case. Unfortunately, an affair is usually the wake up call, and it usually happens when the unhappy spouse has already given up on the marriage. very sad.....
at this point, because H has already made his wishes clear (he wants to try to reconcile) and OM has already made his wishes clear (he would like to continue to be invoved with me in a minimal way if I wish, but will not leave hs wife for me). So, it's "all about me" because I must decide what to do, they have already decided. The chances of OM changing his mind about what to do are somewhere between slim and none. However, the chances of my H changing his mind are pretty good... he will eventually tire of waiting for me and move on, as is understandable. 