Your post has me thinking Tim, There has been no shortage of conflict over the years between me and W but the same as you, she always gets her way. These last 4 days on my own has given me the space to think and get my feelings together. When I met her at the airport my heart leapt when I saw her and I knew that what I must do will be well worth it. I decided to fly through that storm and believe me I can fly! I read Mojo's 3x story and for the first time I thought "Yes that's possible for me too". SD who crashed on his last flight.
Quote: I decided to fly through that storm and believe me I can fly! I read Mojo's 3x story and for the first time I thought "Yes that's possible for me too".
Good for you, Dave! I have no doubt you'll succeed. Being Super Dave, I imagine you'll even be flying without a plane! Best of luck, and keep us posted on how it's going.
I'm not sure if the following will be helpful or not, but I'll throw it out there...
I was just thinking about this whole approach, and my experience of it. One thing I've realized is that while it is VERY difficult to get started in the beginning (or at least that was MY experience), it DOES get easier. For instance, a couple of months ago I had GREAT difficulty even starting a conversation with W about this topic, and about what I wanted to do. Approaching her for LM seemed nearly insurmountable, esp. since I had been "trained" to expect rejection, so most times I couldn't even bring myself to try. Now, however, I have NO difficulty beginning an initiation, and if she turns me down, I also have a lot less difficulty dealing with that. If the "rejection" is done in a way that makes ME vulnerable, I'll call her on it, and we'll have a discussion of it. This is MUCH different than things were just a month ago or so. Also, I have a MUCH clearer view of what the ACTUAL issues are now than I did before, and this picture is getting clearer as more data is available. I have no doubt that as the data piles up, additional issues will surface. That is a good thing. I also now feel much better about myself - I have more self-respect and confidence.
A crucible is where things heat up, way past the boiling point. That is what is necessary to get things moving forward. Simmering does no good, because that doesn't allow the "chemical" change to happen. You have to find a way to heat things up enough, then changes can happen. One partner pressing for what they want and need, and holding firm, taking a stand and not backing down will do this.
One, I am trying to figure out what I can do in my own cruciable, and I am having a heck of a time finding something that might actully impact my wifes "Desire". Two, after reading the book and now doing it a second time, I find that I get depressed knowing that my wife has ALL the ability to fix my marriage and I have none. THe fix is that she find a way to desire me, and until she does this, I am at her mercy. The only fix that I can do is to end the marriage and start over. So my choices are to make changes in myself and then PRAY that the wife enters her cruciable and regains her desire for me, or I go nuclear and screw up everynes lives, hers, mine, and my 3 boys, so that I might have the possibility to find happiness with someone else.
Boy, I just love the nuclear option. In order for me to find happiness, I must HARM my own children emotionally. Boy, that is a great option.
Wanting to be desired, that is not differentiated at all is it. Is the only fix for this to find a way to NOT want to be desired. Doesn't everyone want to be desired? Since I was a teenager, the only real goal in my life is to be "Desired" by a lover. How does one stop this? I find all the other things in life to be such MINOR things when compared to this. How does one forget about the need to be desired?
Quote: I am here because I have a NDH and it helps me to know that I am not the only person out there that has that problem. Especially being a woman I used to think it was horrible that I wanted the physical aspect of a marriage and the man I married didn't. thats why I am here Annette
Annette: I'm here for exactly the same reason as you are.
Quote: THe fix is that she find a way to desire me, and until she does this, I am at her mercy. The only fix that I can do is to end the marriage and start over.
I think you are viewing things a bit too negatively. Yes, you may have to put your marriage on the line to increase your wife's desire, but you are pessimistically assuming that she will choose divorce over working on being a more sexual person and improving her emotional connection with you. If she loves you why would she choose divorce? What you want isn't unreasonable and she will probably come to see the benefits herself. You need to take a firm stand from a place of integrity, express your stand with absolute clearness to your wife and then hold on to yourself when she reacts. The rest is up to her. It won't be a one-step process, but it really is quite simple and elegant.
Take strength and optimism from all the success you've seen on this board and...
GO CEMAR GO!
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
CeMar, I think you're missing several important points.
Quote: Wanting to be desired, that is not differentiated at all is it. Is the only fix for this to find a way to NOT want to be desired. Doesn't everyone want to be desired?
It's not that wanting to be desired is not differentiated, and it's NOT that you need to find a way to NOT want it, it's that your NEEDINESS on the subject is VERY fused. You are effectively saying that whether she DESIRES you or not DEFINES you as a PERSON. You get your self-definition from HER. You are looking to HER to validate YOU. That is fusion. What you need to do is find ways that you can validate yourSELF, and separate your self-image from her view of you, so you can stand up and say "This is me." I don't think you really know WHO or WHAT you are, apart from the DESIRE to be DESIRED.
Quote: and I am having a heck of a time finding something that might actully impact my wifes "Desire".
Forget about impacting HER desire. Find out about yourself. Nothing you do can change or control HER in any way, except that if you make MEANINGFUL changes in YOURSELF, and your approach to your M, then her REACTION to you will change.
Quote: I find that I get depressed knowing that my wife has ALL the ability to fix my marriage and I have none. THe fix is that she find a way to desire me, and until she does this, I am at her mercy.
You sound to me like a needy little boy. Do you sound this way to yourself? Do you think you sound this way to HER? Why would she DESIRE a needy little boy? She already has 3 of those, why would she want another? You need to find a way to GROW UP and relate to her as a MAN, who has his own wants and needs, yes, but doesn't DEFINE himself by them.
I'll close by pointing out something that should now be painfully obvious. I have twice given you a challenge to post something REAL on here, giving me (us) some actual INFORMATION about your sitch, instead of just b!tching about what you see as your "only two choices", which are polar opposites and only two out of many possible choices. So far you have ignored me. So since there is no way for me to be of any practical help to you, because you are not sharing enough information, don't be surprised if I no longer respond to you. I have my own crucibles to work through. I don't have time for yours, unless you are prepared to stop whining and start a journal, and get REAL.
I was not ignoring you, I just could never find that last post where you asked for info.
wife and I are 45. We have been married for 16 years. Dated for 2 years before that. We were both VERY physical during the first 4 years, then when first child came along, she changed, and her desire has been declining ever since. She is overweight. She has a hypoactive thyroid. She is premenopause now. She grew up under HORRIBLE circumstances, with child neglect and probably assault. She is a very independant person and strong willed. She was never real affectionate, but now is NEVER affectionate. She has made it clear that if she never had sex again, that would be OK. She never kisses me or touches me. She has a poor body image. She likes to be incredibly busy.
Myself, I am in pretty good shape, but could stand to lose about 30 lbs. I work out 5-7 hours a week, and I am working to create 6 pack abs. I get compliments from the ladies at work. My sex drive is higher then EVER, it is always there. But I don't push it with her.
As a couple, we are incredibly busy, usually with one or more activities everyday, and on Saturdays, often 3 soccer games, and baseball games, and football games. We are probably TOO busy. I have not had a real date alone with the wife in 2 years. It's always family things.
We are having financial difficulties now, and the wife has some issues with trusting me and my budget. I do not waste the money, I just have trouble sticking to my budgets. This did not cause her lack of desire. She says that we have nothing in common, that I may be boring, that she can't trust me, and that she is not attracted to me.
I do have hobbies, and I keep busy usually from 6AM to midnight almost every day. The wife actually stays up later most night then I do, to be with our teenage sons. I have to get to sleep to get to work in the morning. She spends all of her time with the boys, she clearly finds them to be far more important then me.
Quote: You sound to me like a needy little boy. Do you sound this way to yourself? Do you think you sound this way to HER? Why would she DESIRE a needy little boy? She already has 3 of those, why would she want another? You need to find a way to GROW UP and relate to her as a MAN, who has his own wants and needs, yes, but doesn't DEFINE himself by them.
Yes, I believe that she finds me needy. That is the nature of the problem, all LD women find their husbands to be needy, becuase they need sex from them. I get sex once every 4-6 weeks, and this appears to be NEEDY. I always feel like a little boy in the candy shop asking mommy for some candy. I hate this. But I have tried not initiating with her and it makes no difference to her. I also have tried to be nice to her and try to help as often as possible around the house, yet that counts for nothing.
That's a lot to chew on. Where to begin. Unfortuantely, LD women cause their husbands to become unappealing, since he does all sorts of useless things to try and convince her to have sex. So I guess I need to differentiate more. But how? I already do a bizzillion things. I golf, I have hobbies, and spend a ton of time in the gym. So how do I self soothe? How do I become more of the man she wants? And then when do I see results, since my love tank is BONE DRY.
I read the PM and I am trying to figure out my crucible, but I have already done lot's of changing, where now?
Quote: You need to find a way to GROW UP and relate to her as a MAN, who has his own wants and needs, yes, but doesn't DEFINE himself by them.
Yes, grow up is probably necessary, I want to be the attractive man to her. Yes, my needs are for sex and affection. These are the #1 and #2 needs I have from marriage. Anything else pretty much is so far down the list as to not matter to me. As to defining myself, I am not so sure on that. But marriage without sex and affection is pretty much pointless. Why would I as a man want to be married to someone that does not find me attractive? Maybe I need a therapists to sort out this mess and point out where to go next.
Just work on becoming the man YOU want to be. When you are proud of who you are then you will be naturally differentiated. Your wife's behavior/reactions won't affect your sense of self-worth and you'll be able to take a stron stand for your integrity issues.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
