Quote: And, like the other night, her lack of excitement made it hard to be excited so I did exectly what I shouldn't have done...I closed my eyes and let my mind wander off and focused on the sensations and not the connection. I guess the hugging filled the emotion pot and then I was just horny. I also felt like I had something to prove to myself...that I could be done.
Maybe you could just think about her doing you in an unaroused state as being equivalent to her doing you in a sated state. If I do my H before he does me or we ML, I can more easily get into his experience and I become very aroused by doing him. If I do him right after I've orgasmed, I still enjoy it because of the feeling of power and giving pleasure to someone I love,but it's not always as arousing (sometimes it is and I convert a "do" into a "f" and get 2 for the price of 1 ). If she is willing to do you when she's not in the mood, maybe your reaction to the event could get her in the mood. You could try closing your eyes but verbalizing positive feedback. Don't say "Faster, faster" if she's going too slow, say " That's it baby, yeah, yeah, yeah" when she's got the right groove going.
OOps, I just broke my vow to not give advice about LD wives. Just take the above with a grain of salt and...
GO DAVE GO!!!
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
You guys all have the option of having your wives choose whether they're willing to "do"you even if they're not in the mood. How would this translate to the LDH situation? I can't imagine my H doing me and not getting in the mood. It seems like if I asked him to do me it would be the equivalent of initiating sex. Do you think I should try? "Honey, I know you're not in the mood right now, but I am really in need of your services. Report to the bedroom in 5 minutes with clean hands and tongue at the ready, hard-on optional" It would be amusing as hell if nothing else.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
You know, it's very difficult to take a couple days off from this board and come back and see the same thing being repeated over and over. Don't get me wrong, there are definitely pearls worth clipping but I'm just feeling really hopeless again and not sure if there really is anything I can do.
The "desire" issue is really nagging at me right now. I'm starting to not want sex unless it comes from her desire for me. Is this other-validation at play? I'm not sure. But the fact remains that I'm married to someone who is put into the mood by confrontation rather than seduction.
I found myself fantasizing about my W responding to me in all the ways that I've wanted and it's made me depressed to think how much of a fantasy it really is.
I don't know what to say or do anymore. My feelings for her are very different now than they used to be. Over the past 10 years, I had "freeze dried" my honeymoon feelings and lived in a state of "nostalgic acceptance" of our current state while living my own life alone in the marriage. Now that I'm trying to re-connect, I'm discovering that my feelings for her aren't nearly as loving as they used to be. I thought an increase in sex might rekindle those feelings in me. We've increased the frequency but I'm just not "feeling it". How do you express the values of differentiation when talking about yourself, then expect you partner to change so much about themselves?
I'm not going to initiate at all this week. I'm feeling too scared to engage in another crappy session where she simply "does" me. I'll keep being good but I think I'll wait to see if she initiates anything out of "real desire" for me. If it doesn't happen, it might be time to emotionally distance myself and let her watch TV by herself at night. I have no idea what the right thing to do is anymore.
My W used to say that she loved her life and wouldn't change anything about it. This was before my effort to improve things. She now says that her desire for me simply required that I "participate" in the family more. Then why didn't she ask me to participate in the family more when she said her life was perfect? Is she really saying that she doesn't care if she has desire for me or not? I think the answer is clear. It still feels like she doesn't want to want. How long do I accept this? I could ask the magic question "why do you think I want to ML to you? and why do you want to make love to me?" I might even add..."what do you think my answers will be?" In this whole process, she seems to be slightly untruthful. She also keeps telling me "I'm sorry that I don't have some complex issue making me this way...I'm just a simple girl...what you see is what you get". WTF is this all about? Why is she saying these things now?
I'm also having some feelings of the past come up. I'm feeling like she's taking me for granted and using me and I'm feeling resentful. She never has indicated what she loves or even likes about me. Her BS and lack of confrontation tells me that she is simply conforming in order to make the marriage last but she's shooting herself in the foot because I'm finding her non-challenging now. Even the increase in LM is simply an intellectual adaptation to the stink I've been making and I'm starting to feel resentful again. Maybe I need to go to church with honey's H and have a relationship with an invisible man.
I'm rambling now...I probably just need sleep, vitamins and some food. I'm still wasted from this weekend.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Apparently the hardest thing any LD can do is to want to want. I have to believe that most LD's, even when trying to resolve the situation, never realize that the fix is not to just do it, the fix is to create desire for the spouse. They become mechanical at it, rather then become NATURAL at it. They become LD's that just have sex more often but still remain LD the entir time. To put it bluntly, if you don't WANT sex, you will never be any good at it. This is one thing about PM that really was not to helpful. To get to the PM, requires desire for the spouse, and yet, never in the book were there any suggestions to the LD on how to DO this. The book says to the HD spouse, go differentiate. Then MAGICALLY, the LD spouse is going to change and renew their desire for you. Sorry, it just does not happen this way for most LD women. THe LD women MUST overcome all of her sexual demons, and she must confront these pretty much on her own. This is darn near impossible since most women have no clue as to what their sexual demons are.
I think this is why Michelle tells the HD spouse to be VERY understanding in TSSM. I have always thought this was code for, "Realize that you LD spouse will never be able to meet your needs for sexual fullfillment (DESIRE) and you will have to settle for something far less.
50% of women lose their sex drives. The other 50 % keep theirs. That means 50% of us guys have to be the UNLUCKY ones that marry their worst nightmares. Unfortuantely, there are two soltuons to this nightmare, and each spouse holds one. This is where the guy really looks bad, she holds the solution to making your marriage great (DESIRE), and you hold the solution that will rip the marriage apart (DIVORCE). So when we implement the one solution that WE as guys can control, everyone thinks we are horrible for it.
I have gained a new found empathy for guys that leave their marriages. I overheard a bunch of women talking this weekend at soccer. One women says "My father got up after 25 years of marriage and said he was no longer in love and left". Then I hear all the other women say, "That is awful, what a beast!" How did your mother take it. Not one women in the group had a FREAKIN CLUE as to why he left. I would lay you 5-1 odds that he left because she was a fridgid bitch. It's all about DESIRE, and why the heck don't these women KNOW THIS. WHo the HECK is telling these women it is OK to be FRIDGID?
YOU are telling her that it is okay to act this way because you put up with it and you have not given it to her in plain language what will happen if things continue this way.
IMO, asking her if she wants a great marriage is not NEARLY clear enough. You need to tell her in no uncertain terms just what it has come to you with you--a matter of life and death for the marriage.
If you don't then YOU are the one who is, in effect, telling her that it is okay to be frigid.
Be strong and have that conversation with her that you so desperately want to have. Overcome whatever is standing in your way (fear of her response..?) and DO IT!
Dave, I think you should just talk with her about this.
Ask her if the 2x per week is going to consist of the types of encounters you have been having--with her bringing no desire, nor trying to tap into it while you are ML. Her desire is not an essential component; we can all ML to our partners with little desire now and then and not fret about it. But if it is becoming a regular thing, then I think you are compelled to call her on it.
Right now, I am at a loss for words on how to best say this, while remaining compassionate. I will think on it and get back with you.
She also might be testing you..or trying to get this "experiment" to go away by being available but not bringing anything to the table, so to speak. If you give up, then you have proved her right..that this is not that important to you and it was just your latest little adventure. So stick with it--there is so much to gain!
And maybe it is time to revisit what kinds of things get her going--have you ever asked her, and has she been able to give you a satisfying answer?
I think you should ask her the "why" questions; I could see that they were very thought provoking to my H, if nothing else. Although his response as to why I would want to ML to him was pretty predictable: "There is no reason." Very telling!
Hang in there and get some nourishment and rest and then let us all know how the talk goes.
And maybe it is time to revisit what kinds of things get her going--have you ever asked her, and has she been able to give you a satisfying answer?
I did ask her the other night if there was anything I could do other than "ask to ML" and that at some point, I want to actually seduce her. She couldn't think of anything. I'm always asking if there's something I can do differently and she keeps telling me that my "involvement in the family is all she needs". What? Is that all she needs to say "yes" and "do" me? I want to know what it is I can do to really get her excited but she's never answered that. Maybe I should keep having the boring unidirectional sex and keep asking her what I can do to get her excited. I'll sound like a broken record but she will eventually have to answer. "What could I do to seduce you?" I'll add this to the list of questions.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Such as, What things excite you sexually? Do you have to feel relaxed in order for the desire to flow? (and then the corollary to that question: What are some things that relax you?) Does reading erotica make you feel excited? Would using a sex toy for some serious stimulation help things out?
If she is drawing a blank, then maybe you can help refresh her memory. I know that when I do this with H, all of sudden he is coming up with things that turn him on. (not that he ever DOES those things, lol, but that's a different topic)
I think as long as you continue to accept her "I don't know" answer, you will continue to get it. Maybe a little gentle prodding will get her thinking in another direction and she will realize that her avoidance tactic won't work any longer.
As far as her "involvement in the family" response...well, my H sometimes says things like this too. It used to infuriate me until I realized that he VERY easily gets mixed up as to what we are really talking about. She might be wanting to guide the conversation back to "what can I do differently to show you I love you?" rather than "What can I do differently to arouse you?" My H does this nearly every time we talk about sex. He wants to turn it back to love for some reason. Next time she says that maybe you could ask her to clarify what she means by that: That you being involved with the family makes her HORNY? Or makes her feel secure? Or what does she mean by that? And if it's anything other than horny, I would gently but firmly redirect the conversation back to sex, since that is what you are trying to work through after all.
Hey I just thought of something. Maybe my H does that (turn it to love) because when I am pushing the sex issue he suddenly feels insecure and sends out a "bid" to make sure that I still love him as much as ever. That makes perfect sense! However, he is still required to answer the hard questions and if he doesn't know, then I set a time for him to think about it and get back with me. If he hasn't gotten back with me in the time frame we agreed on, then I ask him again. I know I sound perfectly horrendous to live with and I promise you in NO other area of our lives am I this aggressive, but dang, I have to be this way! Otherwise I would have heard "I don't know" about a zillion times and never gotten any farther than that.
I agree with HP 100% and I'll add a specific idea. The activity that is most highly correlated with high sexual frequency in women is reading erotic or romance novels. Go to your local bookstore and buy one or more of the following titles.
Naughty Stories:A to Z Herotica Best Women's Erotica Erotic Fantasies for Couples
Ask your wife to please read the book, books and let you know which stories spoke to her desire. If she is able to find some that are arousing and if she is willing to let you know which ones, then you will be much better informed. If she says that none of them work for her, please mail the "Naughty Storie: A to Z" and "Erotic Fantasies for Couples" to me because I don't own them yet.LOL
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: The "desire" issue is really nagging at me right now. I'm starting to not want sex unless it comes from her desire for me. Is this other-validation at play?
Dave, could it be that whereas the frequency issue was at the forefront a little while ago, now the focus has shifted to a new issue? I'm thinking that it's more a question of quality than quantity for you at the moment. I don't think it's necessarily other-validation at work, I think you're maybe finding another level of gridlock to work on.
Quote: But the fact remains that I'm married to someone who is put into the mood by confrontation rather than seduction.
Are you sure you aren't pigeonholing her? Are you SURE about what you think? Are you sure that what you THINK is the case is actually REALITY? Have you talked with her about this?
Quote: I found myself fantasizing about my W responding to me in all the ways that I've wanted and it's made me depressed to think how much of a fantasy it really is.
How specific have you been with her about how you'd like her to respond to her? Have you shared these fantasies with her? This would be an act of self-disclosure, and therefore further differentiation, as well as intimacy. What she DOES with this information should be interesting.
Quote: Over the past 10 years, I had "freeze dried" my honeymoon feelings and lived in a state of "nostalgic acceptance" of our current state while living my own life alone in the marriage. Now that I'm trying to re-connect, I'm discovering that my feelings for her aren't nearly as loving as they used to be. I thought an increase in sex might rekindle those feelings in me. We've increased the frequency but I'm just not "feeling it".
Okay, so you've discovered something about yourself you didn't expect. Is that so much of a surprise? Maybe you should spend some time confronting yourself on that topic, put yourself in crucible on it, and see what emerges.
Quote: How do you express the values of differentiation when talking about yourself, then expect you partner to change so much about themselves?
You disclose your true self, and see what she does. You don't "expect" anything in particular, but her response will give you new information.
Quote: I'm feeling too scared to engage in another crappy session where she simply "does" me.
So theres something else you can challenge yourself on. This sounds like fusion to me.
Quote: I'm also having some feelings of the past come up. I'm feeling like she's taking me for granted and using me and I'm feeling resentful. She never has indicated what she loves or even likes about me.
And yet another possible crucible topic. Dave, don't give up just when things are getting interesting!
). If she is willing to do you when she's not in the mood, maybe your reaction to the event could get her in the mood. You could try closing your eyes but verbalizing positive feedback. Don't say "Faster, faster" if she's going too slow, say " That's it baby, yeah, yeah, yeah" when she's got the right groove going.