This is mainly to Mojo: Does it ever bother you that you have to be so blatant when initiating, or indicating that you want sex that night?
I am starting to feel resentful and I think that one of two scenarios is going on: 1. He knows what I want and ignores it, hoping that it will go away; or 2. He really is that clueless and needs some obvious sign from me to clue him in.
Last night he was sitting on the sofa and I laid down next to him and stretched my legs out across him (he is a certified leg man). Periodically, I would bend my legs at the knees and expose the goods to him. I should say that I was wearing a nightie with nothing on underneath. At one point I was looking at his face and saw him staring at my legs...Finally!, I thought, we are getting somewhere! But nooooooo when I glanced down at his hands I saw that he was only inspecting a mosquito bite that I have! Good GRIEF!
So we went to bed and he was almost instantly asleep, so I took his hand and placed it on me..a few absentminded strokes but sleep soon overcame him. He finally woke up enough to ML, but only after me continuing to wake him up and basically forcing the whole thing. He did say, during it, that he was glad that I persisted so I at least have that little crumb.
Now, my mood is fine for the day but I do feel resentful at times, and quite frankly jealous of the LD women who have to do NOTHING, of having to be so blatant when I want sex. I want to be able to do what I did...sit on the couch, bottomless, and stretch out on him and give him an occasional glance (if he's interested in looking, which he was not) and have that be ENOUGH. After all, his initiations are never anything spectacular or aggressive or blatant.
Thanks for listening; I am just griping today. I gotta get out of this gripy mood I've been in lately..
Quote: Does it ever bother you that you have to be so blatant when initiating, or indicating that you want sex that night?
You may have meant it mainly for Mojo, but it applies HERE as well! Yes, I DO feel resentful about this. I still have to actually VERBALIZE it... I have to ASK in some way... out loud. I've been trying different ways of doing this, most of them (lately) not phrased as a QUESTION but more as a STATMENT of my desires, as in "I think tonight would be an excellent night for ML" or "I would really like to ML with you tonight" instead of "Would you like to ML tonight?" Very limited success so far, which is why I'm so hopeful about hugging till relaxed as a way to increase our differentiation and intimacy, and find that EC.
When we're sitting on the couch in the evening, she always sits up next to me, and I put my arm around her, and quite often there is the APPEARANCE of EC, like for instance on or the other of us will often give a little hug or squeeze that seems to say "I love you." But just as often she'll fall fast asleep in the middle of whatever she's doing, and stay that way until bedtime... Frustrating!
Ok, this is a fused question and you certainly don't have to answer it, Tim, but do they KNOW what they are doing or are they ignorant?
I mean, did H know that I was trying to seduce him or did he truly have no idea? If I had done something blatant, I know that he would have caught on..he isn't a stupid man. But sometimes I would like to be subtle.
Quote: ...do they KNOW what they are doing or are they ignorant?
That's a tricky question, because if they KNOW what's going on, and are PURPOSELY ignoring it, then that's a very hurtful thing, especially if they're being deceptive about it, but if they are truly ignorant of it, then being upset and feeling rejected are inappropriate. I do know that in a number of examples in PM, the LD spouse knows EXACTLY what's going on, and DELIBERATELY sets out to "sabotage" things. I have often wondered if that's what W is doing. I, also, would like to be more subtle, but that gets me nowhere. I have to believe that at least some of the time, she is FULLY aware of my intent, but chooses to "misinterpret" it as just being cuddly and loving. That's why I've begun blatantly stating my desire in a way that she cannot ignore. She has yet to actually say she's not up to it, but it's now been more than 2 weeks since we last successfully ML, and I have initiated a number of times. I'm starting to panic. Well, not panic, exactly, but it IS frustrating, especially since our 25th anniversary is coming in a little over 4 weeks, and we've planned a really special outing for it, and I REALLY want LM to be part of it...
Related question... I've been wondering if W could be being passive-agressive. I was reading about this last night in PM, and started thinking about W's family. Her father retired some years ago, and increasingly over the years, their M seems to have evolved into an armed camp of passive-agressiveness. Her mother has become a bit more assertive, not wanting to put up with his "crap" the way she used to, and he'll often turn to us and say something like "See how she treats me?" They have been married over 50 years, I think. I sure don't want a marriage like theirs. Anyway, I've always thought W is a lot like her FATHER, and his behavior lately smacks of passive-agressiveness, so I begin to wonder...
My ex used to say, "if you want sex all you have to do is ask for it." I was like you, honeypot, in that I wanted it to be playful. Most of the time it was like setting up a play date and having to be VERY specific about what I wanted when I wanted it.
He was very passive when it came to our sex life. Why are people passive about getting something you know they want deep down?
This is the way I look at it. When I would show my husband the "goods" and he continued on as if he had seen nothing more than the bottom of my feet it was hurtful. Not only was it hurtful, it made me wonder if there wasn't something wrong with the man. It had been my experience in the past that, doing such a thing got an immediate response.
My ex was military, one summer he spent 2 months in Italy. When he got home I paraded around naked, did everything in my power to seduce the man in a non-verbal way. Finally, 6 days later I had to ask for it. He never turned me down when I asked for it but I got so tired of dealing with someone who would not respond to me when it was evident what I wanted.
I don't think questions like this have answers unless the other person is willing to give input into their behavior. Is it ignorance or do they know and are ignoring us for some reason.
I think more than likely they know and are choosing to play the passive role in the exchange. Since my divorce I've seen my ex husband do this sort of thing with my sons. My oldest is in college. The man will not voluntarily give the child money that he knows the child needs BUT if the child goes to his Dad and asks for it he gladly gives it.
What does it say about someone who will withhold something they know you want or need until you ask for it? What does it mean when someone will deny themselves something they want if you don't go to them and ask for it?
I know my ex wanted sex with me, I know he wants a relationship with his children. He is passive about the things that have the biggest emotional impact on him. I'm not sure there are answers to questions like this. Cathy
Tim, my ex is very passive/aggressive. During our marriage I was always the one to speak up when there was a problem. The one who wanted to find solutions. He took the passive stance. In other words he allowed me to think I was in control and getting things done.
When the marriage was over he used all that control he had given me to beat me over the head with it. A passive/aggressive person will sit back, do nothing, give you the control and then eventually turn it around on you.
Our spouses withholding sex from us is a covert way of punishing us. My ex husband has a terrible relationship with our oldest. He withholds help with college tuition in an attempt to punish him. He doesn't have and didn't have with me during the marriage the emotional integrity to express his anger and resentments. What better way to get angry with someone and still appear to be a good person than to withhold something and then gladly give it once you ask for it?
They take pleasure in depriving others, they feel in control by making others ask instead of giving in and giving what the other person needs.
It goes back to what PM says about not wanting to want. If they don't let you know they want you they remain safe in the relationship. The passive/aggressive has to keep others at arms length. Cathy
Thank you guys for the responses. VERY insightful.
I have been giving this more thought this morn and here is what I came up with: He knows what I am doing. However, he has this weird low esteem hangup/shyness about sex/awkward with being in the aggressive role thing going on. So he probably enjoyed it but it, in and of itself, was not enough to get his motor runnin. For that, he needs verbal confirmation of what I want. Then he feels "safe" enough to proceed with his own desires and wants. Up until that point, he'd rather stuff his own desires than be upfront and run the risk of being the only one who's horny. (THIS IS WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT LD PEOPLE) There is no risk of him being the only one! And yet this fear is so strong and so real that he'd rather forego sex altogether than be wrong.
Now, to be fair to him, I always go bottomless at night with jammies on and naked in bed. So me showing up to watch TV like that is not a "sign" all by itself. However, he had told me the NIGHT BEFORE that one of the things on his Sexy List was to show up in front of him, when he was watching television in only a robe and open the robe and stand there and let him look at me. I reminded him that, if he were sitting down and I was standing up, that at this point the main thing he would see would be the pg belly. He said, oh yeah, well forget that for now. (as I have said before, the belly does a number on his sex drive) So upon thinking about it, I thought this might be the next best thing. He still gets to see the goods but the belly is covered. BUT, you see, the missing element was me showing up in front of him and being BLATANT about it. Just sitting down next to him in a state of undress does not make it clear enough what he is supposed to be feeling about my actions. He could be wrong...so he does nothing.
Either that, or he just was not turned on by me. Which the mosquito inspection would certainly suggest. Oh well, I'm not going down that road.
Here is further proof of my theory: I can be doing the same exact action but if I say, I want you, then he is all hot and bothered. If I say nothing then he feels no desire. I think he has gotten lazy and become dependent on me to put HIM in touch with his own desire.
How do I get out of this cycle? Anyone? Bueller?
(that was for you, Scott, since you seem to know a lot about movies, even obscure ones. Oh wait, it was sci-fi! No WONDER you remember it! LOL)
Quote: Does it ever bother you that you have to be so blatant when initiating, or indicating that you want sex that night?
It ALWAYS bothers me. I only do it when I'm desperate. I actually find it hard to be aroused, if I know H isn't and I find it hard to be assertive when I'm not fully aroused. Sort of a Catch-22 that I need at least 2 gin and tonics to overcome.
Quote: 1. He knows what I want and ignores it, hoping that it will go away; or 2. He really is that clueless and needs some obvious sign from me to clue him in.
In my situation I'm pretty sure it's #1. He's practically admitted that this is true. I think he would actually prefer that I didn't initiate, but if it's been a long time and I have some hope of success, I'm likely to try my luck anyways.
I wouldn't even be able to do what you attempted since my H is even worse about "cuddling" than sex. I usually sort of have to put on a show for a not necessarily appreciative audience across the room. The other night he told me he didn't like a tank top I was wearing, so I took it off. We were having a discussion and he told me to put another top on because he didn't want to talk to me with my breasts exposed.
Quote: I do feel resentful at times, and quite frankly jealous of the LD women who have to do NOTHING, of having to be so blatant when I want sex
You are singing my song. I can't imagine anything that would make me more aroused than to have a H who wanted it so bad I could actually even tease him a little. I wonder how many years I would have to withhold in order to get my H into that state. AAARGH!
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
