Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums THE SEX-STARVED MARRIAGE Sex Tips for HDWs with semi-willing LDHs

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I'm still taking baby steps, and as the LD spouse my goals and baby steps are different and, in many ways, easier than MegaMojo's and yours regarding sex in our marriages.

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Actually, I still think many on this board are too hung-up on labels like LD or HD. In my M, we actually have differences in desire levels on many different things. When it comes to sex, I have a higher level of desire than my W. When it comes to decorating the house, SHE has the higher level of desire. When it comes to gardening, we are BOTH LD. Each of us is a complex person, and we experience a full range of desire on lots of different topics.

If you want a label, I think the one I'd hang on YOU would be HD - "Highly Differentiated". I think that's a label that would stick. In that regard, at the moment I'm PD (Poorly differentiated) but I'm working on it. Actually, based on your post, I'd say you're a High-Definition person.. you know who you are, what your goals are, and you have known these things for some time. By contrast, I have, until much more recently, lived my life much more day-by-day, without planning much past the end of my nose. I'm trying to learn better habits, but of course it's difficult. However, it does give me something interesting to do...

Hey, eyesopened.

I have noticed in several of your posts that you appear to have a strict set of rules for hubby to play by.

Have you informed him of your rules?

My wife is lower desire than me, and I keep running into 'rules' I never knew existed. Funny thing, I don't have many rules, ask touch grab or wink and I am ready. I am beginning to think that the longer the ruleset, the lower the desire.

Last night I broke a 'rule' in my attempt at initiation. Her reaction initially angered me. I got over that quickly and sat and pondered about the 'rule'. When she queried me as to my seeming emotional distance, I told her truthfully that I was trying to understand her reaction. Then she got mad at me and basically said it was my fault for bringing up that "low drive crap" again, especially when it is my fault. At that point, she got the "AAANNNNNKKKK", not my fault.

I believe in relational boundaries. I also think that you (anyone) should let your partner know what they are. I also believe the list should be rather short.

Just something to consider.

-NOPkins-

Megamojo (or JustJenny),
I started the above post acknowledging that the mere mention of Mrs. Roper could hit a raw nerve, but got sidetracked with other stuff and finally finished it and posted to see that you'd already addressed it.

Ironically, I truly understand your frustration with your husband because I'm in a similar situation with my husband on 2 different issues (spending time together and having a house that's finished and meets our current needs) where I often feel as though I'm begging. I've tried working with him on the remodeling, but that was unpleasant since he's a perfectionist (he tears out work contractors do and redoes it himself) and I thought it best not to have a hammer in my hand with thoughts running through my mind of bashing him with it.

As for being differentiated, I really don't know that I am or that I am in a healthy way. I think a lot of mine came about because I learned early on that even though my parents loved me and weren't abusive, I couldn't always depend on them (fortunately, they encouraged us to be independent and self-sufficient). So, I learned to take care of myself, to make goals and then to come up with ways to meet them (for example, I put myself through college through scholarships, work, and loans). My mother and I had a very rocky relationship when I was in high school and college (we have a great relationship now and I consider her to be one of my best friends) because I felt controlled and smothered whereas she, who'd never had a real childhood, was trying to protect me and keep me from making mistakes. Anyway, it wasn't until after I'd separated emotionally from my parents and stood on my own two feet that I could reestablish a stronger and more loving adult relationship with them.

With my husband, that happened when I left him early in our marriage when he became physically violent during an argument (pushing and grabbing). I warned him the first time that I would leave if he ever did that again. I took our son and left him the second time with every intention of divorcing him, and he voluntarily went into anger management therapy. We were separated for 6 months. It happened a couple of other times, and I left him and filed for divorce. He went back into counseling, I went into counseling, and we eventually reconciled (we had 3 children, and he's a good father). There's been no physical violence since then except to a couple of chairs and the wall (I don't like it, but I can live with it as long as it's very rare, he replaces or fixes what he destroys, and it's only directed at inanimate objects). So, this is another relationship where distancing (not only for me, but for my kids, too) was necessary.

Now that my boys are older (college and high school), I've noticed the same thing. If I cling to them or am intrusive, they want to get away. If I let go of them and stop intruding in their lives, they're more likely to spend time at home and to talk about what's going on in their lives.

Anyway, I still feel like I'm taking baby steps and just trying to get through one day at a time, but that's probably just life.

You come across in your posts as being confident and independent and sexy, and I know a lot of men who'd love to have a sexually confident and adventurous wife like you.

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With my husband, that happened when I left him early in our marriage when he became physically violent during an argument (pushing and grabbing). I warned him the first time that I would leave if he ever did that again

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I've been feeling lately that my H withholding sex had led to me behaving like a domestic abuse victim. You hear about women becoming like Stepford wives in order to avoid triggering their Hs violence. I was becoming far too Stepford-wifey in an attempt to jolly my husband into giving me some sexual attention. The difference in the two situations being it's pretty clear when someone is being violent and it's hard to know if someone is withholding sex in a conscious or unconscious attempt to control you or genuinely having problems leading to low desire.

I've wondered if my H has turned to withholding sex as a "safe" way to express his anger. He has a bad temper but I believe it's a matter of integrity with him to not express it violently (besides he knows that like you, I would be "out of there" in a heartbeat). But, perhaps I've been too quick to deny him other means of expression. I grew up with a mother who was full of rage and I have problems with any sort of fighting. I don't like to argue in front of the kids, or in public or at all really. Maybe if we had more yelling matches it might actually be better for our relationship. Does anyone have any thoughts on this matter?

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I have noticed in several of your posts that you appear to have a strict set of rules for hubby to play by.

Have you informed him of your rules?

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No, there's no STRICT set of rules to play by except that I have boundaries and won't allow passive aggressive behavior.

As far as sex itself, I'm very comfortable with it and love and trust him enough to engage in a wide range of practices as long as it's not unsafe or unhealthy and doesn't make me feel abased. If you're familiar with Lou Paget's sex guides, I'm comfortable with everything in those; and neither my husband nor I are interested in more extreme stuff that includes other people, animals, BDSM (with the exception of light bondage that's consensual and can be undone by either one of us), etc. He has my promise that I won't turn him down, which means that he, the HD spouse, now controls the frequency of sex in our marriage. That seems like a very short set of rules, and it doesn't seem to be a problem for him.

BTW, even though I told him that I wouldn't initiate unless he apologized for his remark about me DEMANDING (which was a passive aggressive comment made to stop an argument on an unrelated subject and to hurt me) and promised not to do that again, I still fulfilled his earlier request about wearing nothing but his favorite perfume to bed the night he returned (even though he hadn't called me once while he was gone). That was my way of letting him know that I was still standing by my promises, that I wasn't rejecting him in any way, and that it was safe for him to initiate. My insistence the next morning (I was asleep when he returned that night) that he acknowledge that HE wanted to ML when he initiated, rather than put the WANTING back on me by asking if I wanted to ML (he knows, because I've told him many times, that I love him and enjoy ML with him) or if it would make ME feel good (he knows that it does), was simply reinforcing what I'd already told him upfront in my note --that I wasn't willing to initiate physical intimacy such as ML and massages if he was going to use those open-ended offers against me by accusing me of making DEMANDS.

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Maybe if we had more yelling matches it might actually be better for our relationship. Does anyone have any thoughts on this matter?

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Megamojo,
I'm with Jonathan on this. Unless you and your husband truly enjoy a yelling match and can stay within well-defined boundaries to keep from hurting each other and engaging in personal attacks, it's unlikely that yelling matches will be positive for a marriage.

Hey Eyes,
I've been really enjoying your posts but I have to chime in with Nop here and say that a different approach to this conflict might be the best thing.

Cause the thing that was jumping out at me in regards to the argument was how Mrs. Roper-ish your husband was forced to act in order to ML to you that morning. Is this really what you want? You said that if he ever put you in that position ONE TIME (which I think it is kinda unproductive to put such stringent rules on relationships, don't you?) that it would be the last time.

You know, we all make mistakes and we all say and do dumb things and even things that we don't necessarily mean--which I'm sure he didn't mean that you demand to give him foot rubs, that's asinine! It sounds to me as if he was just spouting off and trying to get under your skin.

I know it upset you and hurt you, but I would also bet that (based on your description of yourself taking "baby steps") that there have been times when your own performance as a wife has been less than stellar. I guess I am saying that we all need to cut our spouses some slack sometimes and make CERTAIN that we are not treating them in a way that we ourselves would never tolerate.

Just my two cents!

P.S. I want you to know that I say these things from a position of a wife who does indeed have a track record of being a not so stellar wife, at times. That's why I felt entitled to make that comment.

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Cause the thing that was jumping out at me in regards to the argument was how Mrs. Roper-ish your husband was forced to act in order to ML to you that morning. Is this really what you want? You said that if he ever put you in that position ONE TIME (which I think it is kinda unproductive to put such stringent rules on relationships, don't you?) that it would be the last time.

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I disagree that my husband had to act Mrs. Roperish that morning. He could have simply initiated nonverbally or he could have initiated by saying what HE wanted. He knew what I meant in my note and he was testing (after 20 years of marriage, we know each other very well). BTW, the only issue here is initiating or starting. This has nothing to do with what happens after we start where we both feel comfortable asking or saying what we want verbally and nonverbally.

If you've read PM, you'll recall that Schnarch discusses the idea of not wanting to want (I believe the couple was Warren and Carol). That's been a problem in our marriage in the past with some real passive aggressive behavior toward me by my husband at times. There's nothing Mrs. Roperish about him acknowledging that he WANTS to ML and WANTS foot rubs rather than acting like a passive partner who's reluctantly allowing these things he asked for to be done to him. There's no begging or magic words involved. To get what he wants, he only has to let me know verbally or nonverbally without putting the desire or "want" back on me as in "will it make YOU feel good" or "do YOU want to". He knows that I'm truly remorseful for having turned him down in the past and that my promise never to turn him down (and I won't ever make him feel like he's begging or being demanding) is good because I've never broken a promise to him.

Passive aggression from him has been a common pattern in our marriage (never at work or with anybody else), and it was his anger management counselor (who's also served on a presidential commission on domestic violence) who told me that I had to be direct and had to set boundaries and immediately enforce them if he crosses them if we wanted our marriage to succeed.

Every marriage has its own dynamics and we've been married for over 20 years. One of the things he found very attractive about me is that I am direct and upfront. I wrote in another post that he grew up in a family similar to the one in the book and movie, The Great Santini (including a USMC officer father, southern belle type of mother but his mother was alcoholic, clingy, and manipulative, and physical and emotional abuse). He had no sisters, he attended a military academy when they were still all-male, and the women he dated tended to be passive, especially in bed. His mother was constantly trying to set him up to marry her friends' daughters (nice, docile girls from their small southern town where his parents were big fish) while also making him feel that sex and men were generally disgusting.

When we met, I was truly his peer. We were both AF officers. He was one rank above me, but I had more people under my supervision. I was completely independent and living halfway across the country on my own in a big city away from friends and family. When we became lovers, I was the first woman to give him a BJ (he said that most of the women he'd dated preferred to be passive in bed) and I was the first who expected him to reciprocate (which he loved). He loved that I was a "nice" girl parents liked, but was also self-sufficient and thought sex was normal and fun. As I've said before, I'm the LD spouse when it comes to physical sex drives, but I love ML with him, want to be a great lover to him, and have promised him that he NEVER has to worry about being turned down.

While a brief explanation like this in black and white may sound unemotional and cold, there's no way to truly express the patterns, nuances, and emotions of a whole marriage.

What I've found most helpful are Michele's books and KLA tapes, and she's constantly saying to find what works and stick with it, and this is what's worked in the past in our marriage. I also think that some of you are missing the fact that what I did really worked for both my husband and me this time.

He was probably pissed (or maybe just sulking) when I gave him the note explaining that his accusation that I was keeping him from finishing the house because I was DEMANDING that he let me rub his feet (the house was supposed to be completed a year ago, I didn't start regularly offering to ML and to rub his feet until a little over a month ago, and I only offer when he's not doing anything else and is sitting there with me). He left on an out of town trip the next day and was gone for the entire week. He didn't call me at all while gone although he usually calls almost every night. I didn't call him because I figured he'd call if he wanted to, he probably didn't want to talk to me then, and it's our routine for him to call since he's often busy even in the evenings. He came home late Friday night and I was already in bed, but I was wearing NOTHING except his favorite perfume (something he said he'd like me to do every night, if possible, whether we ML or not and which I'd been doing for the past month). So, even though he hadn't talked to me all week, he knew I wasn't holding a grudge or sulking, that I wasn't rejecting him, and that I was still standing by promises I'd made him. And, I woke up in the morning with him wrapped around me and we made love.

I guess I don't see why another approach would be better since this one worked. He also knows that if he wants me to initiate physical touch like ML and rubbing his feet, I'll happily do that when he's ready and able to promise that he won't use it against me. Based on past experience, the apology and promise will probably happen within the next few weeks. On the other hand, if he somehow truly perceives my offers as demands, he knows that he won't be bothered with them for now, and that this issue hasn't spilled over into other areas of our marriage and won't be affecting my feelings for him.

I really don't see how he loses. I love and respect my husband, and as I've written before, my motivation to change was the discovery that he felt hurt and rejected when I turned him down (usually because I was tired, busy, angry, etc.).

Michele and Schnarch both say that the LD spouse generally controls the frequency of sex in a marriage. I've turned all control of this over to him, the HD (very HD) spouse. I will happily and enthusiastically f__k him and give him foot rubs, back rubs, and all other similar types of physical touch whenever, however, and whereever he wants. It makes me feel great that this is something I can do for him that satisfies him and makes him feel loved. The only thing he doesn't get is my permission to use this as a source of vulnerability and bad feelings for me, which would put us back into a downward spiral not only in this one area but our whole marriage.

An issue I've frequently wondered about came up in Tim's thread. I decided to post my question here in order to not "hijack".

The HD men on this board are always posting about not being able to have sex because their wives are having their periods. My question is would the guys mind having sex while their wives were on their period? My H has always claimed that he doesn't care if I don't (he's really not very repressed once he actually is aroused), but I have to wonder.

There is one other thing I've wondered about. A few weeks ago I engaged in a very dangerous activity for a HDW in a SSM. I started reading a book about sex technique and arousal. I came across a little essay in which an apparently HD man was saying that due to variations in internal anatomy it just felt a lot better to f**k certain women than others. Is this true? If so, how much would it matter?

Random, just for fun thing I remembered.This is a game some HD co-workers and I amused ourselves with a few years ago.

MAD LIBS FOR HD PEOPLE

Try to fill in the following mad-lib and not think about sex.

I'd really like to (active verb) her/his (noun).


If you're HD pretty much any solution will take your reptilian brain down a familiar path.

Examples

I'd really like to dust her knick-knacks.

I'd really like to sign his yearbook.