Quote: In addition, I think that while your H is saying that he wants more overt action, his idea of overt and seductive might be totally different than yours. To him, seduction might be talking to him, whispering in his ear, crawling across the bed towards him...as opposed to the more scary (to him) versions where you are asking for pretty technical sex moves or masturbating in front of him as a form of seduction.
What you are saying makes sense but it hasn't been proven true in my experience. My husband has made it clear that any sort of timid approach by me is not going to work for him. He hates it, if for instance, I just come up to him in my flannel pajamas and say "Do you want to cuddle" and my most successful moves have been blatant ones like saying "Do you want me to mix up some gin and tonics and pop in a porn movie" or stripping to the waist and licking my own nipples(I got a lot of mileage out of that one).
Quote: They don't think like HD men because we don't TREAT them like hd men!
So true! But what's the solution? Act fake LD? Hard to do and in my experience counter-productive. Constantly stroke his ego? I already do this to the extent I can remain truthful. Maybe our LDHs have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps (self-confront) and tell themselves that doing their best to be the lovers we need is good enough.Not even trying is NOT! We can't screw it on any tighter for them, they have to do it themselves and only then can they come to appreciate their "favorite sex maniacs".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
It was suggested to me a while back to act fake LD and I absolutely refuse to do it. Any more than I would suggest to an LD person to act fake HD. So that was not was I was suggesting at all!
I think that the solution is to continue to do what you are doing--be yourself and force him to up the ante in terms of what he is contributing to the sexual relationship.
It sounds like he has become too comfortable in the knowledge that he doesn't have to get in touch with his sexuality or seduce YOU because you will do the work for him.
HOW to do this, I don't know! When I try to state my needs clearly and set the ol boundaries, it seems that he ignores it completely and that they weren't a boundary for me, after all, since I do nothing about it but cry.
There are no real and lasting consequences for him that are immediate. It is more of a long term and cumulative effect. One that I don't even know that he is really aware of or understands. He knows that his actions or inactions affect my feelings but he I think he truly believes that every time we DO make love that the clock is reset and everything is fine again, until he "screws up again". I would bet that he is not aware that the clock keeps on going, and accumulating pros and cons in regards to this marriage and the good nights do not undo the bad ones.
One more question for you: Do you think the porn has affected his ability to feel normal sexual desire? That is, does he WANT the non-timid approach from you or does he NEED it? Has he become desensitized to normal sexual relations between a man and woman? Does everything always have to be over the top to get him going? I think that I would feel somewhat overwhelmed by that prospect (although I don't get that feeling from you at all).
I am not anti-porn but I do think that it can change perceptions in some people. Some can look at it and go on their merry way, completely unaffected. I don't know how my H would react, as he has never looked at it, except for the few times when I forced him. (that was a fun lesson for Honey to learn..H and porn do not mix) However, I do know that he has a tendency for his sexual desire and his general feelings for me to mesh in a weird way. Meaning, he could never have sex with me if he was mad at me. So I believe that he would not be the type of person who could look at porn and then have regular sex with me. The feelings would all mesh together. I believe this is why he can't even bring himself to look at the VS catalogs and buries them in the trash can, lol.
Ok, I know this might be a bit of a stretch but I was just throwing out ideas for ya..
Hi there! I also have a VERY LDH and as far as frequency goes...right now there is none. I'm wondering though...have both you and your H gone to counseling together? Is he open to that? Or have I just missed that somewhere in the posts?
The reason I ask is that my H has agreed to counseling...of course I told him it was that or we wouldn't have another anniversary. During our last session our counselor hit the nail on the head as far as his behavior...we discovered that he was behaving towards me exactly as his ex had behaved towards him...he didn't even know it...and as soon as he realized how he'd been treating/hurting me...it really hurt him.
Anyway...off of my soapbox. It's going to take awhile for he and I to get back to the "sexual intimacy" right now we're working on regaining our emotional intimacy. But in general he's a tough cookie to get going too in the bedroom (or wherever). He tends to be fairly visual as well, but if I try to be blatant about it (i.e. masturbating in front of him) he takes that as pressure and shuts down.
Here's a thought (take it for what it's worth :-) on how to get his motor going even when the kids are around. Try taking some provocative pictures of yourself (digital cameras are great for that)...then leave them in different spots where you know only he will find them...maybe with a little note or something like that....then just drop it. Don't say anything about them to him. If he's visual, he will have the visual stimulation anytime he likes...and he will know you were thinking of him in a special way when you did that for him, that just might get his motor going.
Let me know what you think :-) & keep your head up!
Quote: act fake LD and I absolutely refuse to do it
I didn't think you were suggesting this. I assumed it was an "integrity" issue for you just like it is for me. I used to barely be able to keep myself from going ballistic when my H would even slightly suggest that maybe I was "oversexed". Now that I feel more "differentiated", I just think "Yeah, lucky me!".
Quote: I think he truly believes that every time we DO make love that the clock is reset and everything is fine again, until he "screws up again"
I think this is true in my situation too. The way I'm trying to be more "honest" about this is by initiating whenever I truly want to. This way he can't ignore the situation and pretend everything's okay in between encounters.
Quote: Do you think the porn has affected his ability to feel normal sexual desire?
I used to think maybe this was the case, but if it were true this country would be chock full of LD men. All the guys on this board are not happy with just porn as an option. I think maybe it's more a case of the porn informing his taste rather than his drive. It doesn't really overwhelm me, it just makes it tough to be seductive with kids around. Also, I worry for the future. There aren't a lot of wrinkly porn stars.
Quote: he could never have sex with me if he was mad at me
This is true for my H too. I've wondered if withholding sex is his passive-aggressive way of expressing some anger he feels towards me. I've tried being over-the-top nice and agreeable in order to get around this. But I am absolutely done playing that game. In my opinion, withholding sex because you are angry at your spouse or life in general, is second only to hitting your spouse for similar reasons. If this is revealed to be the true situation as we go through our "crucible" dealing with this, I will find it very hard to forgive him for being so sadistic and will find it hard to trust him at all.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: Though I am monogamously "in lust" with my H right now, does that mean I don't think any other man could ever turn me on? I prefer to be in a more "differentiated" mind set in which we both know we have other options but we "choose" to be with each other.
Sorry, I should have clarified this because I agree about "choosing" to be with each other. I didn't mean to imply that no other man should be able to turn you on or that no other woman could turn on your husband or that you couldn't have good sex with another person. My husband and I both know that's a fact of life especially as we both had other lovers before our marriage. Guess I was going for the attitude expressed by Paul Newman when asked about his faithfulness to his wife, Joanne Woodward. His response (can't remember if these are the exact words) was, "Why fool around with hamburger when you have steak at home."
I can only speak from my own experience, but my husband and former lovers have all taken great pride in being great lovers and in learning and knowing my particular turn-ons and how to get me "purring" (and I'm sure they took equal pride in learning the same about their other lovers). Perhaps it was slightly dishonest, but I'd let them "discover", with subtle (definitely NOT timid) guidance and lots of positive reinforcement, my turn-ons and the way I liked to be touched rather than coming right out and telling them. It just seemed to work better that way (they never had to worry that I was comparing them to former lovers, that I would directly or indirectly criticize their technique, style, or suggestions, and I felt powerfully seductive rather than dishonest in doing this), plus they'd often "discover" something that was completely new to me. On the other hand, I also liked doing the same with them, "discovering" like a treasure hunt what really turned them on and felt good to them. One thing I learned starting with my second lover is that no two men are alike, something that's a top turn-on for one isn't necessarily a top turn-on for another. None of my former lovers, however, can begin to compare to my husband as a lover simply because the intimacy and level of "knowing" (to know and be known in every sense) with him are much higher.
I also should clarify my comment about overt sexual moves when guys are occupied with something else. My observation (again based only on my own experiences with my husband and former lovers) is that even a high testosterone, high sex drive guy will turn down or even get irritated at sexual overtures if he's preoccupied with something else (think of the proverbial joke about a woman standing naked in front of a guy watching football trying to get his attention) if, and this is a big if, he's not feeling sexually deprived or frustrated (definitely not saying to deprive or frustrate your husband, just to understand that a sexually starved or frustrated guy might drop whatever he's doing at that time to respond, but that many men who are generally satisfied with the frequency won't). They may enjoy sensual activities that don't interfere with what they're doing and that don't require a response (one reason why my husband loves foot rubs while watching TV) but it just seems to me that some men simply don't want to feel pressured to suddenly switch gears.
Finally, I have to admit that I don't have any experience with LD men as lovers. One of the nicest guys I ever knew was one of my husband's friends who was definitely LD. You could have surrounded him with naked Playboy models, and he would have preferred to talk with them about one of his many, many passions (he has several degrees and many interesting and time-consuming hobbies). This seems to be unlike your situation in that he wasn't even interested in porn, which he would have seen as a waste of time that he could spend doing the things that he truly enjoyed.
Ultimately I don't have any advice other than Michele's advice to keep doing what works, to try what's worked in the past, to stop doing what doesn't work (don't keep going down cheeseless tunnels), and to try other things if what you're doing now isn't working. Also, as I wrote above, books such as Lou Paget's How to Be a Great Lover provide some suggestions for seducing a man. Or, you might also want to get a book such as Sherry Argov's (she's a comedienne and radio host), Why Men Love B!tches, which is lighthearted but also insightful, especially about how men are often turned off by women they perceive as chasing them (you can get it at amazon and other bookstores).
Interesting observation about Stanley Roper (from TV show Three's Company). I agree with you that he definitely was LD in his marriage, but he seemed to spend a lot of time leering at the two girls on the show. If he was a real person, I suspect that he spent time MBing in the bathroom while fantasizing about them; and if internet porn had been available, he'd have spent many hours in front of his computer. Also, I was under the impression that the whole thing about Jack pretending to be gay wasn't because Roper was anti-sex but because it was still common at that time not to openly rent to couples or groups unless they were married or the same sex because many, if not most, states had sodomy laws on the books at that time that prohibited sex between all unmarried people.
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers
To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. C. S. Lewis
I think the with holding is a way of being in control of something. I have been thinking about this a lot with my W in mind. I know a lot of time she feels that she is not in control of her life. I think that for my W it is the way of being in control.
That is why when she gets drunk she is a totally different person sexually. When she gets drunk she is all about sex. It is absolutly amazing. She turns into a totally different person.
Maybe you should just try getting him drunk a lot. .
lee, We should probably take this to a new thread but you just described my W. My W is completely out of control and uninhibited when she is drunk but just the opposite in sober life. This leads me to assume a few things...
1. She, like you said might simply be using sex as a "self-control" point. 2. She's possibly scared of her sexuality and fearful that she will be less virtuous in her own eyes. 3. She simply gets crazy when she drinks.
At any rate, I've been thinking about talking to her about it BUT I have to keep reminding myself that her sexuality (and brain) is hers and all I'm allowed to care about is how it touches me. Sure, it would be really cool to have a counsellor untap that part of her and have her turn into a sex maniac. But right now, I just need focus on the fact that she's struggling to meet my desires, appreciate her for the progress she's made in meeting my desires. She's becoming a lot more relaxed these days with the idea of ML which is huge.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: Interesting observation about Stanley Roper
To be truthful, you really upset me with your initial Mrs. Roper comment. On at least one occasion in the past, I've actually said to my H " This situation is driving me crazy, you are making me feel sexually repulsive like Mrs. Roper".
I do not like having to be overly concerned with looking or acting sexy. I am a geeky, bookworm who likes to garden and I would wear t-shirts and overalls everyday if I could. I do not like having to be sexually aggressive, I much prefer for the guy to make the first move.I'm HD enough that I can be "the top" if I must, but I am unhappy with a situation where I always have to be. If I could count on my H to initiate sex with any sort of reasonable frequency, I would probably only initiate once in a while.
If the only way I'm going to get laid in this life is to pretend to be LD and act bitchy, then I guess I will just stick to gardening and hope for better things in the next.
Actually though you've been quite helpful, just typing this post has helped me clarify things for myself.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Mojo, "I think maybe it's more a case of the porn informing his taste rather than his drive."
This is EXACTLY what I was trying to say; thanks for the right words. I couldn't think of how to say it and didn't have the time to ponder on it.
I agree that porn does not affect men's sex drives but I think it does affect what turns them on. I can see how you would feel that it is hard to be seductive in that fashion with teenagers around.
What else does he respond to? Descriptive emails? Whispering in his ear what you will do to him later? I know that the overt stuff turns him on, but I am trying to brainstorm here and think of ways to do that in an unobtrusive way so that the kiddies are not aware. Is he turned on by things like "I don't have any panties on under my dress" and that sort of thing? Mine isn't so all of that spicing it up crap is a nonissue for us. I mean, he would be incredibly turned on by the no undies IF he already felt horny and still yet, there would be no overt show of horniness--he just may or may not jump me later on. Weird man!
I completely agree about the Mrs Roper thing. I personally could live the rest of my life without a reminder of the fact that, to him, I appear desperate and demanding while he smirks his way through life never needing my touch.
The having to be sexy thing..I don't really like it either. To be truthful, I want the fact that I am an attractive lady to be enough for him. I want it to drive him crazy by just BEING. I sometimes resent the fact that I also have to DO. However, it is no different than me saying that I expect him to step up to the plate sexually and maintain the frequency that I prefer. He is entitled to his preferences, just as I am entitled to mine. I think where you might be running into problems today is the thought of, I am going to do all this work and thinking and he will still do NOTHING. And that might happen. Who knows..
I told my H the other night that he will no longer be able to rely on my anger as a guage of how well (or unwell, lol) he is doing as a lover. I think that he gives what he thinks is acceptable and then sits back and waits to see if it makes me mad or not. Well, this has worked in the past but it is tiresome and draining for me. So he will no longer have this cushion to fall back on. I have been happy and cheerful to him, all the while maintaining my stance that he let me down for almost two weeks. (f*cking sleep issues got in the way AGAIN) Since then I have felt empowered and as if I took back some of the power that I had given him and am forcing him to rely on himself to know what to do and when. I will no longer be guiding him and prodding him with a cattle poker (my anger) to do the right thing.
I know all of this is elementary PM stuff, but hey I haven't read the book in two years~
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