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Ah ok. Yes I do not believe physical separation is mandatory for a spouse to turn around. But it all goes back to how you handle it. Since my W was never in a PA, there was no reason to kick her out of the MBR. There was no need to file for D. There was no need to for some of the tough love necessary for a S actively in a PA.

So what I did was I engaged in behaviors that increased the chances of her turning around. There were no guarantees and that was something I learned quickly, and that I remembered from our sitch in 2005. And that was to let her go to get her back. That was rediscovering the guy she fell in love with. That was by self improvement and becoming the best version of me I could be. But that was also by not reacting emotionally to what what she said or did.

That last one is difficult, and takes a lot of hard work and practice. But it really the way to maximize the chances of your S turning around. It allows you to remain upbeat, pleasant, be pleased, even happy. And that is no matter what your S says or does. People laugh when I say this but even if your spouse were to tell you he had an orgy with 12 women, your remaining emotionally even will have a profound affect on your WAS, regardless of whether or not it saves your marriage. That's an extreme example, but it hammers home the point about how important remaining emotionally detached is. And that includes that if you decide to end your marriage! You can still be pleasant, pleased, upbeat and happy, even if you are the one that decides enough is enough!

So as I got better at DBing, especially at that last one, I slowly saw my W start to want to leave less and stay more. It wasn't overnight, just like you stated, and every time I slipped up it set us back. But as I got better my W started to see me becoming that guy that she met 20 years earlier and fell in love with. Which is why GAL is so important!!

I know it is a cliche on the this board, but focusing on those 3 aspects, GAL, 180s, and detachment are crucial. And they work together. As you detach you'll get better at GAL. As you GAL, then detachment becomes easier. As you 180 and self improve the easier GAL and detachment become. Also GAL helps you see that living a life separate from your S isn't as bad as you thought it would be. They all work hand in hand.

Thanks, Steve. That is helpful. Not that it matters at this point, but maybe for BlueSea-- I think I probably dropped DBing behaviors too early. In fact in thinking about it, I think I had maintained my detachment for the most part for the first couple of months. Because of Covid we didn't talk about our R at all, and there weren't a lot of opportunities for me to show emotional attachment, at least on the negative side. We did have fun together and the friendship was there. I did have slip ups here and there, like on our anniversary, but it wasn't until the last couple of weeks when I pushed to start talking about the A and our R that it appears to all have gone downhill and he reconnected with AP.

Steve-- do you still feel emotionally detached from your W?

BlueSea-- thanks and I'll hold you to it

Hi friends,

A series of observations on where I am right now below. I'm sorry I don't have what it takes to file for D tomorrow and be the total fearless bada$$ May I know is inside of me and who I think you guys are rooting to come out. She's fighting with a lot of fear and anger and disappointment right now. Also inside me though is the momma bear May who will take just about any level of $hit someone can throw at me to protect my children, but as soon as they're hurt she's ready to take zero prisoners and give zero f**ks about H in the process. Hurt me? I can handle it. Hurt my kids? Now we're on. I have absolutely no worries about enforcing my boundary of if he walks, I want nothing to do with him. I'm not saying I'll always feel like that, but I'm pretty sure it would take a good long time and a totally changed person for me to forgive that step of pulling the children into this.

In any case. 2x4s or observations requested. Just be kind of gentle with the 2x4s right now. I have heard what everyone is saying and I am listening and doing my best with what I have at the moment. Unfortunately, that does not include being ready to walk out the door myself or file for D tomorrow.

Things within my control: 
Focusing on myself and what I need, now and in the long term. 
Detaching. 
Dropping the rope. 
Spend some time meditating on the reality of where we are right now with a goal of really, truly accepting it.  
Being aware of my actions to ensure nothing I do or say is in any way aimed at influencing H's behavior, or could be interpreted as pursuing.
Being aware of my own thoughts, and letting go of anxieties or expectations about the future.
Focus on the present.
Loving my kids and being a good mom.
Being present with them.
Regular practices of yoga and meditation.
Focus on my career choices and fleshing out my plans. 
Looking at dogs/puppies and fencing options for the backyard.
Spend time thinking about all the positive aspects and possibilities for me in a life without him.
Reengage with friends I haven't seen as much since the quarantine.
Make an appointment with an attorney to figure out my options and financial implications
Botox.
IC.

Things outside my control:
His behaviors: whether or not he is in contact with her. Whether or not he moves to the basement. Whether or not he moves out. 
His thoughts: what his decision making process looks like. what decision he makes. if he even ever makes a decision.
His feelings: how he feels about AP. how he feels about me. how he feels about the MR. how he feels about the current situation. how he feels about the future. 
I can't control whether or not he leaves the house wholly. He may choose to move to the basement or the office. None of that is under my control.

My current boundaries: 
I will not discuss our R or the A with him. It isn't my job to process this with him. It is not my responsibility to help him make this decision. My primary responsibility is to myself and right now, it is not healthy for me to engage in discussions around this with him. (this is the boundary that I did not have in January, though we didn't talk that much outside of discernment counseling.)
I will not work on our R with a third party in the picture. 
I will not be friends with him if he leaves. I will not vacation with him. I will not have meals together with him. I will not allow my children to go on a vacation longer than 8 nights with him. 

Boundaries I'm thinking about but not really there yet with: 
I will not be friendly with him until and if he recommits to the M
I will not share a bed with him until and if he recommits to the M
I will not interact any more than absolutely required until and if he recommits to the M
I will not lie to the children or anyone else about what is happening.  

Things that are on my mind:
How long will I be in this current space, where he is still in contact with AP and not recommitting to the M, living under one roof? As I see it, my choices right now are to (1) stay with the status quo, (2) leave myself, (3) file for D, (4) ask him to move to the basement, or (5) ask him to move out of the house completely. I understand that 4 and 5 are just asking and are not anything I can enforce, but I know I could make the request. Am I missing anything? I'm not willing to do #s 2 or 3 at this point. I did ask him to do #5 and he said no. I think he would do #4 if I asked him to. He would definitely move to the office if I asked him to. I'm not quite sure why he hasn't yet, but I didn't add that as an option because it doesn't actually solve anything for me. If he's gone, I want him GONE. I think staying in the office is the highest form of cake-eating where he gets to tell his mistress (I am liking this term) that he's sleeping in the office, while not experiencing any real consequences. He even had thought up a good story to use with the children so they wouldn't suspect anything was going on. I guess this is a big reason why I'm not asking him to move to either sleeping space. It gives him a nice talking point to show her he's serious without actually having to make any sort of decision himself. And I simply don't feel like giving him that little gift.

Shall I set a deadline for myself on this? Last time, I set a six week deadline based on a work trip he had to her city-- if he didn't break it off with her by then, we were through. This time, I'm thinking the timeline needs to be more around my own processing and detaching to the point where the next step boundaries are authentic and I can enforce them, rather than an externally driven or arbitrary date. I am learning through all of this that we have terrible boundaries generally, so this is not a process that comes easily to me. And, I'm still finding the whiplash of where I thought I was a week ago to where we are now hard to process.

Right now, I'm not yet in a place where I can embrace those next level boundaries authentically. I was thinking through why I set that deadline last time and it was because it was so, so painful for me to imagine him, in real time, understanding how much it hurt me, seeing her and sleeping with her. I understand intellectually that what he is doing right now-- still in contact with her, emotionally attached to her, wishing he was with her, but not actually seeing her IRL-- is just as bad, but somehow it just isn't as painful by half. I am doing better today than yesterday, and yesterday than the day before, for sure. Maybe I don't really love him all that much and am just frightened of what it will do to the children and of being on my own? Or I'm emotionally detached from him as my romantic partner but not detached from him as my H and father of my children in other ways?

Other questions I'm asking myself:
When I get myself to a place where I'm ready-- what will I do? Ask him to move to the basement or out? Hire an attorney and file for D?
Who will I tell and what will I tell them?
What will we tell the children?
What do I need to do about separating our finances?
What are other things I can do to tackle the fear of S/D?.
If he says he wants to try an R with AP, I will say, okay. Will I ask him to MO again or just let him do whatever he does and maintain my own boundaries? I'm assuming he'll move down to the basement on his own. I will implement cold hard NC to the extent possible with him in the basement. GAL and move on.
If he says he wants to recommit to the M, what does that look like? What will need to be different this time? I think I will not make any requests or demands. I will let him come up with the ideas and decide if they are OK for me, at least at first.

Hi May,

This is a great post. Firstly, do not apologize for anything. A lot of the advice we all give here is much easier said than done. I too feel like I owe my advisers an apology when I’m not strong enough to follow through, but none of us need feel that way. You are clearly being thoughtful and mindful, and I don’t think you are operating from a place of denial in any material way.

“Maybe I don't really love him all that much and am just frightened of what it will do to the children and of being on my own? Or I'm emotionally detached from him as my romantic partner but not detached from him as my H and father of my children in other ways?”

I’ve questioned this about myself many many times. It’s really hard to figure out what the difference is I think, for women who think of motherhood the way I think you and I both do.

Anyway, just wanted to chime in. I’m going to read your post again more in depth and comment again in a bit.

I remembered something else you had posted that really resonated with me:



“I have so much fear for my children and anger towards my H for putting us all in this situation. To the very core of my being, I believe that when we chose to have the two of them, we made a family and far more so than our wedding vows, to me this was a sacred promise to them never to break up the family.”


I feel this viscerally, to the core of who I am. I’ve said it almost verbatim. The unspoken promise H made to me when he had my daughter with me feel 10000 times more sacred and important than our wedding vows to me. I can NOT fathom how he doesn’t also feel that, at least enough to give this family some real effort. I feel like if I could understand that part it would help me somehow. It’s the biggest betrayal of all of this to me by far, and I can feel from your words that you feel that way also.

Sorry I doubt this is helpful at all. I just wanted to relate xx

Hope-- thanks for saying that. It is something inside of me that I simply cannot change. I can't really explain it better than that. Breaking up the family and having any responsibility in that feels like the most enormous betrayal that would be on my conscience forever. Yes, I know I'm not the one who cheated etc. That isn't on me. But what I do now IS on me.

My H understands it to some degree, though not as deeply as I do-- he also thinks (if only I were willing) that we still WILL be a family. He says over and over I am his family and will always be his family. That we can do whatever we want to do to be sure the kids have everything they need etc. And the truth is... I can see that, possibly. If we worked on our M with AP completely out of the picture and got to a place where we both looked each other in the eyes and said, you know, ILY but we're better off apart than together. In that case, I could see keeping a strong friendship with him and co-parent together. But with the betrayal of the AP and her potential sticking around in his life-- without him giving it more than this half-a$$ed few months when we weren't even able to be in counseling-- I just can't do that.

Ugh. I'm feeling unsettled again today. H went surfing and last Saturday when he surfed was when he called AP, on his way home. Although, it is kind of strange-- as I focus on how I feel about him possibly being on the phone with her, it doesn't bother me half as much as it would have in January. The other person he usually calls on this drive is his mom, so I have this other fantasy that he called his mom and told her what is going on and she is giving him a little reality dart. I still am also harboring another fantasy that this is a relapse and not a complete collapse and part of the process we had to go through. Anyway, I know none of this is under my control and I just need to let it go. Focus on myself and my beautiful daughters. And, FWIW, managed to be relatively detached-seeming for the past two days. No R talks. Yay for me!

Hi, may. I love your list. I am a list-maker too, always writing down thoughts, but I haven't laid everything out like this yet, and I think it might be helpful for me. This also gives you a document to revisit and change as needed.


What about setting a timeline, if it feels right, when you would simply make it a point to check in with this list? How your current boundaries are working (or not) and how you're feeling about the ones that you're only thinking about now. Even though you'll probably be evaluating all of this as you go, perhaps having a set date when you know you'll be allowing yourself to change course (or not--and not even necessarily with regards to D) would be helpful.

No R talks—good! Knowing what will help you (yoga, meditation) and then somehow resisting it—this is familiar to me too. I'm glad you had the class to bring you back to that space. I think there is this fine line between just jumping in and doing it even though you are resisting and also sitting with/in that resistance, recognizing it, and being okay with it. That's mindfulness too, right?


For what it's worth, I don't think this is a complete fantasy. Would DnJ call it a wish or a hope? I think a hope. The future is still full of possibilities, no matter what happens in the next stretch, even if it feels like a collapse. Even if it looks like one, or is one. What you can do is ask yourself here, in this moment (not the next), do you feel like you're being true to yourself and your convictions? That's what I try to tell myself, anyway!

What do you consider “hurting your children”? Although your children might not know what’s going on yet, they are already deeply effected by your H’s decisions (or lack thereof). Your H has been in this A for 2 to 3 years, actively choosing to behave in a way that is detrimental to your M, and thus your children’s well-being.

I just want to point out that if your definition of H hurting the kids is “H walks out, the kids will know, so it’s over”, maybe it’s worthwhile to think about it more. Why will it take him physically leaving the house for you to give zero f**cks about him? He has chosen to leave you and your children over and over again by being in an A.

I know you said to be gentle, I’m sorry if I sounded too harsh. You didn’t break up the family, he did. Choosing to end the M is only ending the contract. The M is already lost. You shouldn’t feel like you need to bear the weight for that.

May, this is excellent, gold-standard advice from Cardinal. Don't check in with your H, checking his behaviours against your expectations and your time-line. Check in with yourself.

And don't mind-read your future self. As the months and years pass, you don't know what you will be able to forgive and understand, and what kinds of friendships you can form. As it is so incendiary to your husband, and as neither of you can guarantee how you will feel or what you will want in the aftermath of a divorce, I'd quit all talk about the future for now - even in your own head.

This is an amazing list. Use it to check in with yourself weekly - or so - and make sure that the things on the list still should be on the list, and that your small actions align with your big most deeply held values.

Thanks Cardinal, Wooba, Alison.

Wooba... the big thing that is stopping me is the act of telling the children, he moves out (or wherever). That actually hasn't happened yet. And the (silver lining?) to all of this is that he's actually become a far more present and involved father over the past I'd say year and a half. Probably out of guilt but good for the kids. So yes... I feel like he pushed our family to the very very edge of a cliff. But he is trying to make me be the one to push it off.

My anger is building. I am getting closer to doing whatever it takes to kick him out. Broke my boundary of an R talk last night but it did help me in the detachment process. I'm starting to see how selfish he is, how wholly immersed in what he wants and needs with lip service only to me. Someone (sorry, can't remember who it was, but thank you) posted that this is a man who would sit in the basement talking to his mistress and not caring that his W was upstairs probably crying her eyes out. That image has really stuck with me. It is so unjust and wrong to expect me to just go along with all of this and be his friend and spend time together "because it is best for the kids" when he can't pull his big boy pants on and end his A and actually work on the M in a fully-fledged way, if we really want to give the kids the best possible chance? He is OK with my pain and throwing his AP in my face in his mind forever (because they have True Love and will be together for the rest of their lives of course), and he has to be true to himself and take this chance on happiness, blaming me for the SSM which was responsible for him embarking on an A, asking me to suck it up for the sake of the children? He can't even bring himself to volunteer to GTFO of my life further than the basement because he doesn't want to waste money and also doesn't want to be away from the kids? He had the b@lls to say to me last night that he sees this just as the next step in the natural progression of our relationship.

Steve... I've been repeating after you, he is a lying cheater.

Anyway. I'm sitting in this anger right now. I am starting to wonder why I want to be with this person who has done all these things and who is willing to put me through so much additional pain because of his own selfishness and poor choices.

I repeated my stance to him over and over-- this is your decision. I'm not going to make it for you. I don't want to talk about why or why not I wouldn't want to be friends with you if you leave me for another woman. I don't want to hear about her or your feelings for her. This is your bed. You made it. You need to decide how you're going to get yourself out of it.

He had started reading the Gotttman book when this all happened last week, and I told him I didn't see much of a point in him reading that now. Maybe he should read the Shirley Glass book. He said OK and I ordered it on Amazon (I have it on my Kindle but he prefers real books). It came yesterday. I left it in the package and he opened it and started reading it (which surprised me, tbh). He said his IC thinks he needs to go be with the person he really loves. I said go for it. He still hangs onto his primary condition (which has changed slightly in the wording though when I asked him about it-- it was "we have to make this decision together and stay friends"-- now it is "I won't forcibly leave May without her agreeing it is what she wants too") so when I say go, he says not unless we can do it as friends. It is perverse. He is still in the G-D bedroom.

(His other condition used to be "do not hurt the kids." Now he added one-- "not abandon AP"-- and the children one shifted to "maintain the best situation possible for the children no matter what" which is kind of a ridiculous condition as it is a given, but I think he is interpreting that right now as "May and I stay friends" in order to provide that for the children.)

He said to me this morning (a) if I really loved him I would want him to be happy (b) if I wanted a real shot at our M2.0 I should "let" him go try and fail with AP (presumably being open to reconciling after he had his fun) (c) he didn't think he'd ever be able to stop loving her or hurting me.

He thinks he is in an untenable situation and his two options are either move out now or really push her out of his head the best he can and try 100% to make it work with me for six months, and if at the end of the six months it didn't work, to call up AP and see where she is. I did not respond to this.

He said he's scared to try with me because he doesn't think it will work and he is haunted by her moving on (she's talking to her ex about starting things back up with him, and he may come and visit her for awhile to test it out which would involve a two-week quarantine together in her apartment, and has also been talking to another guy about traveling together this summer. Apparently both of these ideas are freaking the $hit out of H because he can't stand to think of her with someone else and he might lose her forever).

He's scared to MO and all that will entail. He thinks the only way out of the situation for him is for either her to no longer be an option (she changes her mind again about children or moves on/gets over him) or for me to tell him to leave, ideally in a friendly and "consciously uncoupling" way. (He did actually use that term, folks. That is what I'm dealing with right now). One of us needs to make the call for him. And every time he says this to me-- he is totally ambivalent, he doesn't know what to do, the scales are equally weighted-- it disgusts me, because if it were me, the answer would be so, so easy. Make the choice that hurts the children the least. Easy. The fact that he can't do that ... maybe is enough of a reason for me to walk out. Maybe it doesn't need to be him breaking up the family. It can be him paralyzed with indecision when there is a path to choose that will hurt the children less.

I'm moving very much towards asking him again to move out-- asking, not telling, which I think would have a better potential outcome. if he refuses, ask him to move to the basement and work on some system to get as much of his $hit down there as possible so he isn't up in the house. Before I do this, though, I want to consult with an attorney-- I reached out today to schedule a consultation. I am starting to feel like I don't want to be married to this bozo even if he is the father of my children.

(I'm purposely not thinking about the children today. He took them on a hike for Father's Day so I have some alone time to process things. I think I've been thinking about them so much I haven't thought about me. Wayfinder... maybe I do love me more, or I can love me more when we are in a situation where the oxygen masks have dropped and the only way I can be sure they are safe is to strap my own oxygen mask on first.)

What I don't know how to handle, if I do go this route, is how to address the "but we need to be friends" question. I am thinking of saying, If you aren't willing to work on our M with AP out of the picture, I no longer want to be married to you, and I no longer want to be friends with you. I am asking you to leave. Please respect my desire to have as little contact with you as possible. Then going stone cold silent unless it is about logistics with him leaving or the children.

Then-- do I assist him at all with GTFO? I am thinking I could go down to the basement today and start measuring to see how much $hit we could get down there of his, to limit any need for him to be upstairs.

I did have some bouts of silence today, not making eye contact, not responding to any of his jokes or bids for my attention. It was interesting-- I treated every sentence like a text in a NC situation. Does it need a response? If not, don't. It actually worked pretty well, and I was able to still make eye contact and connect with the girls even in the midst of not interacting at all with H at the breakfast table. So that could be possible.

Anyway. So far over the last couple of days I've scheduled an IC appointment, my last DB coaching appointment (might as well use it), reached out to schedule an attorney consult. had in-person (though outdoors) long long talk with the friend who knows everything. reviewed finances, worked on consulting business plan. I have a meeting with my executive coach to work on the business plan next week, she knows about H-- both what happened before but then the recent relapse-- so I'm needing to shift a lot of things around to not depend on him for insurance and finances. Practiced yoga.

Comments welcome. xx M