Trust is a huge issue here. I trust him to be a good Dad. I don't trust much else at the moment.
Originally Posted by Sage4
On one hand, nesting is in the best interest of the children. But it is not in my best interest. And in many ways I have been a mother who has recognized that what's in my best interest is best for the kids. If I can be whole and healthy with him out of the picture, that is better than being a shell of myself and have him coming and going, instigating R talks when it works for him (I have been attempting to avoid them, but they pop up).
Originally Posted by Sage4
I have been the dumping ground for all of H's anger and resentment in our M, as well as the whipping post for all his guilt and shame. I am a strong person, but he has managed to wear me down to a sliver of who I once was.
I think you've answered your own question here. You need to protect yourself-- you need to put on your own oxygen mask first here in order to be the healthy and sane mom you need to be for your kids.There is no reason for you to sacrifice your sanity and health just to make it easier for him to cake-eat. If he's worn you down to a sliver of your old self-- stand back up and grab yourself back, girl. It really doesn't sound like that is possible in this nesting scenario. How will you have privacy for yourself, your things, etc?
Also, for your children-- I think it is SO much more important for them to see you healthy and happy than where they sleep every night. Also, I imagine four children are difficult enough to manage without adding this enormous trauma, likely little sleep, etc on top of it. They need you at the top of your game to help them navigate through this, and you can't do that if your H keeps cake-eating at the expense of your sanity.
I can totally relate to how you're feeling as pre-A H and I learned about the nesting concept and both of us were like wow, that makes sense, really great to see the parents putting their kids first. And then when it looked like H was really considering walking, I was like H3LL NO, that will never, ever happen. I had this almost physical reaction to the idea. If H wanted to walk, he could do it-- but I wasn't going to do a single thing to help him out. I certainly wasn't going to spend a single night out of my own home. If he wanted to go, he could find his own place. If it ended up we'd need to sell the house, I'd do that before I subjected myself to being around him once he left. (Wow, thinking back I was maybe inappropriately angry about the whole idea. It truthfully took me awhile to go from feeling like if he walked I was going to hire the meanest L I could and burn down his whole life to acknowledging that we could be cordial co-parents, though never friends.
So I say-- let him be the one to do the heavy lifting and find a place if he wants to go. Maybe you can find some level of compromise here for financial reasons-- perhaps he could rent a small place and he could hang with the kids at your place for an evening, put them to bed etc., a few nights a week while you go off and do fun things on your own, then you'd switch off and he'd go to his apartment to sleep. If the kids don't need bedrooms at his place, he could also have them over during the day. I know I've seen at least one sitch on the boards that worked that way, usually with smaller kids, where the WS would spend time at the former family home with the children. (Maybe HopeCA?) It may not be ideal, but could be more workable from a financial perspective and then you could still reclaim your home and wouldn't have to see him quite as often, and would be able to sleep in your own bed every night.
You already sound so much stronger than you did when you first started posting.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
May, thank you. I don't know why I need permission to do what I think is right for me, but in this particular case I needed a voice of reason.
I too thought that nesting was a wonderful idea, pre-BD. Putting the kids first, all for the right reasons, etc. But OMG it is SO hard. I have only been doing it for 6 or 7 weeks and I am ready to be done. Maybe it works well for a couple where both parties are in agreement about the split and can manage their emotions between them better? Who knows. Hats off to those it works for, but it is agonizing for me.
I don't quite know why I wasn't able to establish this boundary from the beginning. My first reaction when he told me he was moving out was that I wanted him out lock stock and barrel. But then I was thinking a lot about the children and protecting them. And also clinging to hope that this was a very temporary situation and didn't necessitate such drastic measures. But H has made no move towards me or the M, if anything he has moved further away. I not really sure what I am protecting anymore? Certainly not me. And vis-a-vis not the children.
I also have concerns about how our interactions are impacting my D's. I would be furious if a man was doing to my daughters what he is doing to me. Am I teaching them that it is OK to be treated like this? They have only ever seen me work my a** off for our business, for our family and for our community. Most if it as a solo parent while he traveled for work. I never complained, ever. I made the best of it for the kids, pretended that our life was 'normal' and kept him in our 'presence' even in his absences. I have audio recordings from when my littles were tiny where they say things like 'I don't care about Daddy' and I would gently admonish them and tell them how much Daddy loves them, tell them a story about them and him, talk about what it would be like when he got home, how he would hug them etc. For him to then up and walk away from me, from our M. Am I teaching them that no matter how good, hardworking or loving you are, you still may be unworthy? Is that what I want them to know about relationships? Is that what I want them to know about their mother?
I have yet to take any major stand in this process, except for not backing down that he own this mess. I am sure that asking for a complete S (no nesting) will instigate D. And if that is the case, maybe it was going to happen anyway and better sooner than later?
I am sure that asking for a complete S (no nesting) will instigate D.
Why do you think that? Finances?
I think you have a lot of really good reasons to say no, nesting isn't working for you. If I were you, I'd say this is no longer working for me. I'm moving back into the house full time. If you need to go, you can go, and we can work out what to do with the children. But I'm not bouncing back and forth simply because you don't want to spend the night in the same house as me.
Honestly? Why should you be twisting yourself in knots because he is in an EA? Why should you sleep away from your house if he's the one with the issue? And protecting the children-- yes, I totally get that-- but this is on HIM. Not on you. He's the one who decided to step outside your M. You didn't make that choice-- he did. You do not need to bend over backwards to clean up his mess for him. He gets to do that himself. And tbh, I think the more he has to see/understand/feel just how much that mess is going to impact his entire life going forward-- because it will-- the more likely it is that he'll start to realize what a big step this is. (this is where my H got stymied, really realizing what the reality would be if we S.) I feel like enabling this cake eating by nesting is just smoothing it out for him so that he thinks it is all going to be this easy and nice, you taking care of the house and the business and the kids, he cruises in when he wants and off when he wants. Be honest-- even now, I bet you are the one handling the majority of the emotional work around the house with the children, etc. Right?
They say this over and over here, and I think there is a lot of truth to it even though my sitch is slightly different. An A (EA, PA, whatever-- your H seems deep in it enough that it probably doesn't really matter much, except if he hasn't actually slept with her, my guess is that he'll feel less guilty coming back to the M than if he has slept with her) needs to run its course. He simply can't *see* you right now because all he can see is the AP and how she makes him feel. Affair fog, limerence, whatever you want to call it-- he is just not in a place to make rational decisions and to alleviate his own guilt he's rewriting history and treating you like crap, probably hoping subconsciously that you'll flip out and he has more justification for walking.
If he's that determined to S, then I say let him go. You can't control that anyway. But you can control where you live, and I say if nesting isn't working for you, don't do it. Simple. Stick to your guns when you talk about it, don't get into how you feel or what you want for the future, none of that. Just-- I'm sorry, this is no longer working for me. I'll do it for another week or two (if you want) and then I'm moving back in full time. We can talk about how to handle the children. Do not get drawn into a fight or a deep R talk-- just stick to your boundary, validate him, and stay firm.
Please feel free to take or leave this advice-- just my thoughts at the end of a long day. I have strong feelings about this one because it hits close to home for me, it was a part of my H's D fantasy and really takes me back to that place. I'm so sorry you're there. I know it $ucks. It will get better, one way or another. (((SAGE)))
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I think the D comment is me bracing for the worst case scenario. I would like to think that the reality of a true split with two homes and the impact that would have on all of us would shake some sense in him, but you are right, he doesn't even 'see' me right now. And maybe never will again.
I am trying desperately to toe the line and validate and remain calm. But he continues to slam and bash me. This super nice guy, treating me like absolute garbage. It is so painful. His guilt and shame is so immense that he can't even look at me without wanting to get rid of me as soon as possible. It's like if he hurts me enough, I will walk away and therefore reduce his suffering. It's so, so hard.
I expect a conversation later today about the nesting situation. Totally dreading it, but also I am so in need of getting to a better place within myself that I just have to do it.
Well... I just blew every DB approach in the book.
H and I had a conversation about the nesting situation and I expressed that I saw it as a temporary solution and that for it to continue, I would need us both to lean into the MR. If the outcome of the S was D, then moving apart into separate kid-friendly homes made the most sense. We had some rather light R talk that was neutral for both of us. Then I left for a phone session with my IC, who has been working with me on self-actualization and improvement but also knows my M situation.
In the conversation with my IC, I delved into self-worth, self-value and my fears (surrounding D). He helped me decipher that my greatest fear was continuing to live in limbo, not actual divorce and moving on. This was a new revelation for me because for a long time I think I feared D and the loss of an intact family above all else. But something has shifted in me these past few weeks. I am actually starting to realize that maybe D would be for the best. That living in this limbo is too hard for me and my self-esteem. And I feel like it is impacting my ability to be the best, most present and loving mama I could be. I want my life back. MY life, with all the fixings that make ME happy (my pretty home and garden, my kids, my large close extended family and social network). I have a lot of experience (due to H's travel schedule) in living a fulfilling life without a partner present all the time. I want that back.
Over the past few days a few other things have deeply impacted me. A poster on this forum called Coach wrote a fascinating article called “Go by your Values and Beliefs, not Your Feelings” that really struck me and my situation with a cheating H. I hold beliefs and values about marriage and relationships that come from being raised in, and surrounded by, healthy, functional marriages. In fact, I have no references for D, not among friends OR family (besides all my in-laws, and maybe that is why H is where he is???).
When I examine my situation from a detached, 360 degree perspective, I realize that I have been interacting with my current R situation based on feelings, and not values and beliefs. My values and beliefs about marriages are that they are (mostly) happy, healthy places of mutual support, love and fidelity. And that when issues arise, you lean in and work through them and only then come to a conclusion (which could be D, but you work on it before reaching that point). This leaves me pondering. My values and beliefs would have me walking away with a healthy amount of self-love intact if H is not willing to do the work or reflection necessary to work on our M.
And reflecting further, reading even more situations on the boards, I recognize that I have been doing a variety of DBing techniques for the past 10 months. Nothing has worked and nothing has changed (except that H moved out, reconnected with his EA and we've gotten closer to D). I haven't been perfect in my techniques, but I have done a lot more than I give myself credit for. And I have a lot less to show for it than most other people do.
Looking back, I wished that I walked away 8 months ago and didn't lose those months to this rollercoaster.
Which leaves me in the present moment: I told H that his cheating and his lack of investment in our R was impacting my physical and emotional well-being and that I couldn't continue on the same path we were on. That I believed if he stuck it out in our M, in a few years he would be the happiest he has ever been in his life. That our family was worth it. (I know deep down he knows this is the truth, which is why I said it, before anyone gives me a major 2x4). But also, that if he couldn't commit to even the smallest step towards our MR, that I could no longer continue in limbo and would take the next steps.
No 2x4s here. You stated your truth and your boundary. You didn't cry or beg or plead. I think you did great.
The only thing now-- and this is really important-- you stated your boundary. If he can't commit to working on the MR, you can't continue in limbo and will take the next steps. You HAVE to stick with this.
What are the next steps you are going to take? I would recommend focusing on those, planning them out, and get ready to pull the trigger if needed.
Also-- what does he need to do to show you the "smallest step" towards MR? (I mean, I guess if I was going to give a 2x4 it would be here-- that is a pretty low bar for him to meet and I can definitely imagine situations where he feels he is showing you the "smallest step" when in fact you are still in limbo and feel no better.) What really is your line here and how will you know that he's serious?
((SAGE))
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I think the smallest step towards the MR are ending the EA and starting talks or taking action towards rebuilding our R. It might not even end up as salvaging the R, in the end. But I feel like at no point in our entire situation have we really given our R a chance. In terms of working on those things that broke it in the first place. I have a feeling I know what he is going to say (he is supposed to let me know today at some point). So I am prepared to execute plan b, which is retaining a L next week and learning everything I can about D (I have had a consult so know a little bit already).
The hard thing for me is that I know in my deepest heart of hearts (and intuition) that if he were to just stick it out ‘for the kids’ that in 2 years’ time he would be the happiest he has ever been in his life. In our M, in work and in our family. And I also know that if he chooses his current trajectory, he is going to be 1000x more miserable than he currently is. Strangely, despite my grief, I know that I will be great either way. Plan b will be much, much harder in terms of kids and being a single mother, and having to find a new career once I am no longer working for our business.
I just know I am not going to be OK if I continue on in this limbo. I feel like it is killing me. And I know that many of you are in the midst of limbo or are just on the other side, but my situation feels different in that I haven’t even gotten breadcrumbs. I validate and he spews. Ad naseum. No hope, no signs of any sort of progress.
I’d love to hear if I am doing the right or wrong thing.
I'm impressed with your thought process and your resolve. I'm getting stronger every week but ultimately I still fear D.
I don't get any breadcrumbs either... I've been able to get my H through the anger phase. Things are now emotionally neutral to maybe a slight positive.
Right now he doesn't extend any contact to me as a W or STBXW... he calls me up as his vet when there are issues with the puppy. And, there is no guilt or even a thank you when I provide those services after hours... I've realized that is completely on me.
I think right now if he doesn't give into what you've laid out as your boundary you have to follow up as you said you would. If you don't he will never take you seriously. Ultimately if you proceed exactly how you've told him you would he certainly would start to have a lot of respect for you again. Be prepared for anger... and more of it. But, don't back down.
I hope in about 90 more days to be where you are in being able to walk away.
I think the smallest step towards the MR are ending the EA and starting talks or taking action towards rebuilding our R. It might not even end up as salvaging the R, in the end. But I feel like at no point in our entire situation have we really given our R a chance. In terms of working on those things that broke it in the first place. I have a feeling I know what he is going to say (he is supposed to let me know today at some point). So I am prepared to execute plan b, which is retaining a L next week and learning everything I can about D (I have had a consult so know a little bit already).
The hard thing for me is that I know in my deepest heart of hearts (and intuition) that if he were to just stick it out ‘for the kids’ that in 2 years’ time he would be the happiest he has ever been in his life. In our M, in work and in our family. And I also know that if he chooses his current trajectory, he is going to be 1000x more miserable than he currently is. Strangely, despite my grief, I know that I will be great either way. Plan b will be much, much harder in terms of kids and being a single mother, and having to find a new career once I am no longer working for our business.
I just know I am not going to be OK if I continue on in this limbo. I feel like it is killing me. And I know that many of you are in the midst of limbo or are just on the other side, but my situation feels different in that I haven’t even gotten breadcrumbs. I validate and he spews. Ad naseum. No hope, no signs of any sort of progress.
I’d love to hear if I am doing the right or wrong thing.
I think you have a really good handle on your feelings, thoughts and values and what you want, Sage. I'm not sure an R talk at this stage of things - especially one where you issue some plans or hopes for the future - is a good idea - but it didn't turn into an argument and what is done is done. I know the vets around here would tell you to go dark - or as near to talk as you can - while he is seeing someone else and not committed to the marriage. That you don't tell him he is going to lose you unless or until he does what you want - you just let him feel for a while - a good long while - what losing you would be like. That works for some, feels manipulative for others. To be honest, I can see the value in it.
In terms of your second paragraph - did you tell your H this? That you know what would make him happier than he's ever been before? And you know what will make him miserable? You might be right on that - you might not be - but I think in your H's shoes I'd find this a fairly controlling and perhaps even a threatening thing to hear. I know you didn't mean it that way, but WAS esp. spouses who have other people in their lives, are skittish and cat like and liable to take everything in the worst possible way. That's why you say nothing and do dark. And if you do get into a R talk, you listen, you ask questions, you validate, but you don't tell the person what's good for them. How would it be for you if he told you that he knew, 100%, that in 2 years time he'd be happier than he'd ever been as a single man, or with the EAP partner? You can both 'know' that - and both of you aren't right, and neither of you know, so it's empty words.
I hated limbo too. I issued an ultimatum which backfired on me very humiliatingly (I knew it would, to be honest) but it did give me the strength to go dark, and it was the going dark and H genuinely thinking I was done with his nonsense, that shifted our situation forward (and as you know. it's hardly a perfect situation - piecing is much harder than divorce.)
A, I probably did make myself too vulnerable with H and embarrassed myself. I didn’t write verbatim our conversation; there was an element of our communication where I projected neediness, begging etc. I’m not proud from a DB sense, but I got some thoughts and feelings off my chest and that felt important at the time.
I’m worried that I have pushed by situation beyond the point of any R fixes or DB methods such as going dark. I think H feels cornered to make a decision. And I now have to act on my boundary.
When we were discussing the housing situation, I was brought back to the exact same conversation three months ago when we first S. And I pictured us having the same convo in 6 months and then again in a year. I remember in your sitch that your H was making it pretty clear through your S that he planned on returning at a particular point. Mine has only moved further away. I believe his timeline is based on his confusion (and worry about the children) and finances. If we’re honest, it makes financial sense for him to wait on a D and conversely, it makes financial sense for me to do it now.
I am low today and appreciate every little comment and thought from people on this forum, so keep them coming. Xx
