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Hi May, thanks for sharing! I appreciate your voice and your wisdom.



I have been suspicious of it being a PA since the very beginning. To be honest, this might sound awful, but at this point the EA has hurt me so much that the discovery of a PA would just be adding a very minor detail to the story. They are physically separated and as we are in lockdown, I know it is not physical at the moment.



How did you get to the point of not caring? I have been working on acknowledging my role in the demise of our current M, so I am trying to be open to his truths. But I also want to protect mine. I feel supported by the family and friends who know our sitch, they saw the same truths as I did. But I also don't want to overlook some arenas where I could improve.

I think Allison did a fantastic job of giving me permission to not tell him all the details about the kids. I feel solid on that and am grateful for your and her advice on this front.

Detaching from H is the hardest thing I have ever done. And in a previous life (ie a year ago), I was really good at detaching people's projections or issues from my own. My first response if a friend snapped at me was to think that she must be having a tough day, and I would respond and forgive accordingly. This situation has thrown me into territory where I don't even feel I know who I am anymore. Where is the Sage who could so easily lovingly detach?



You're right, it is true, I am no longer in control. But I think my lack of boundaries has made me feel helpless. But I am working on my boundaries and more importantly, how to communicate them.

I am trying to be kind, but detached. I have had periods of time in our R where he felt I was cold and unattached, there was some unhealthy pursuer-distancer dynamics. So I can't go too cold or removed or it validates his claims against me. So I am trying to be nice without trying to 'nice him back' (which also is a turn off to him right now). The 'nice' dance is all happening on a super fine razor's edge, so I struggle to keep my balance here.

We had the very unhealthy pursuer distancing dynamic in our relationship too. It was always there, and we managed it. Then we went through a very hard time and his natural response to that - to withdraw, seek time alone, look inside himself - and my natural response - to want comfort, to want reassurance, to talk things through, to want physical closeness - threw us into a toxic dynamic that took years to get to a breaking point. I am still working on this and my part in turning it around is not perfect. He has made massive improvements and is much much more caring and empathic towards me now. It is still not perfect and it never will be.

If you are on the distancer side, it is possible that your H has a lot of deep seated resentment and hurt about that. I know I did. I had to either think that there was something wrong with me that he didn't want me, or something wrong with him that he couldn't want me. It was untrue and unhealthy but it was where my head was at, as a person on the receiving end of distancing that felt and looked like rejection but was what I now know is self preservation.

Figuring out what detachment looks like in this dynamic is very very difficult. At this stage, with him being unfaithful to you, dishonest, not wanting to work on the marriage and compelled to live with you, I would give him as much emotional and practical space as you possibly can, and then give him a bit more. Don't disclose your thoughts and feelings. If he asks you, be short and to the point, 'I am finding this very hard, but I am sure I will be okay.' Lean on your friends, but not mutual friends who will feel they have to take sides. Your own girlfriends. When in contact with him or parenting together, be civil and warm. But don't initiate this contact.

It is incredibly hard. I don't think I could have managed in in house separation so not being able to keep your balance in these early intense days is nothing to be ashamed of.

Did you read the sticky by Steve85 “how do you DB if you love your WAS”? If not, please read it! I think you will find it very helpful.

It is already past the point where you need to worry about “validating his claim.” Yes when you two are in a relationship and you should respond to your spouse’s claim accordingly prior to BD. But now he’s already checked out. When you are too close, he will say that you are suffocating him. When you are too distant, he will say that’s why he wants to leave you. There is no winning here.

Nobody should live a life walking on eggshells. You should GAL, focus on your PMA, and keep practicing detachment.

I think you are doing the right thing by examine yourself for your share of mistakes in the M. But I’d say now is not the time to show your improvement - e.g. he disliked that you were cold to him and now you work on being the warmest Sage possible. He is still deep in his EA!!! Give him all the space and time for right now, and work on yourself on being the best Sage possible. You will survive!

My first attempt at setting a boundary was a painful mistake. I set a boundary I didn't want, in an attempt to influence what she did, which are both common beginner mistakes. Boundaries protect you.

I'll skip that and share a time I set a boundary that's powerful in my mind. Context--my GF and I are outdoor and survival experts. Drop either of us into a group of 100--chances are, we're the expert.

One day we were hiking 20+ miles and I wanted to stop for 30 seconds twice an hour to check my map, and for 5-10 minutes every couple hours when we passed a stream. She complained I was being controlling because I was making "us" stop. [Anytime someone combines "controlling" and "us", be skeptical. I control "me", you control "you". "We" and "us" blur boundaries.]

I said I control me, you control you. I told her, if you go ahead I'll catch up. She said in reality I was controlling her because even if she got to the car early she couldn't get in. I tossed her the keys so she could get to the food, water, clothing, and bathing supplies if she got far ahead. Then she said I was still controlling her because the whole point was to walk with me. I said it's up to you whether you walk with me. She got really angry and began screaming how controlling I am--everything we do always has to be done my way. I repeated I control me, you control you.

I felt strong. I get to stop when I want to check my map or enjoy the scenery. It's not a group choice, it's my choice. She gets to wait or keep going. That's entirely her choice, as is whether to join me in the future!

A couple hours later, checking the map, I discovered she'd started down the wrong path! When we corrected course she acknowledged my approach was wise and had saved more time than it wasted.

Most boundaries I've been firm on were initially met with anger and later with respect or admiration.

Another time, on a family vacation, we drove by a lake she knew. She gave me a short description and asked if I wanted to stop. I passed. An hour later, I learned how unique the lake was. I wanted to go! She agreed it was fascinating, but she'd "given me my chance," and I'd passed by it--too late. I said I was going anyway. Since we were sharing my car, I offered to either drop her off or let her take the car, and D10 could go with either of us. She said it was a family vacation, so she had to join me, and I was being controlling. I repeated I control me; you control you. I felt ice daggers on the drive there, but once we arrived and D10 began laughing and skipping, we had a fantastic time. D10 found a crab. GF and I swam in the near-freezing lake. She regularly thanks me for choosing to go despite her protests.

Another day on that vacation, she went with D10 to do an art project while I went hiking.

We both used to control "us" in an uncomfortable way. The boundary revelation is I can do "me" things, she can do "her" things, and we can both do "us" things together when it makes sense to both of us.

Lol, It’s funny to read your perception of navigating with grace and calm. For sure I have acted with desperation, pleaded, had outbursts, cried hysterically on the bathroom floor, tried to manipulate, etc etc. In truth I’ve never felt in control, I’ve always been in a reactive state to H’s behaviours, that he is driving the outcome. I’ve started to pull myself together more and begin to ground myself and assert myself in the way I interact with H, and also in how I organise myself, the kids, the routine etc. I was a crumpled mess for a long time but now beginning to step up and stand up without relying on him for anything. I look back and wonder what boundaries I should have set myself, if and how I could have prevented the S.

Even if you don’t feel it on the inside you are demonstrating a lot of strength on the outside - that is clear from your posts. But yes you are being gaslighted and your H is keeping you attached with breadcrumbs. I don’t feel like I can claim any success in my sitch so reluctant to offer advice as my marriage is failed and seems further away from R than ever. All I know is what hasn’t worked: pursuing, manipulating, not having boundaries. I am also learning to let go of a desired outcome and it definitely helps with reducing my anxiety, as I can stop worrying about an outcome. Focus on you and your children, like you are doing. Sending hugs!

I do think it is important for all of us to be open to learning/growing/hearing where we can improve. I wholeheartedly believe that we all could always do better. At the same time, I think you absolutely do need to protect and believe in your own truth. Don't let him gaslight you. Spend the time you need to to really dissect what was/is going on and where you have room to improve, and in those areas, go for it, try 180s, etc. But where you know you were right, or you were simply doing the best you could with the tools you had at that time? Forgive yourself and let it go. You can't change the past. Don't let it drag you down. Acknowledge it, learn from it, and move on.

I think the most important part is really understanding and listening to YOURSELF, not to him, or to a reflection of you from him. If he is in la-la land, that really $ucks. Of course it does. He is your H and the father of your children and the fact that he's making these choices is awful. But... those are his choices, not yours. Focus on yourself and celebrate the things you CAN do, and remove the focus from the things you can't.


My H and I had a similar dynamic, we had an SSM after the kids and he was the pursuer. I also had a hard time with this part, trying not to be too cold yet also not pursuing back. Wooba gave you some really good advice about not walking on eggshells. I did this for probably six months and at one point my H called me out on it and said he really felt uncomfortable feeling that I was walking on eggshells around him, and I realized in that moment how unattractive that was. Plus, it wasn't me. So, I stopped. I was explicit in R talks when they happened and it was relevant that I was attracted to him but I did not try to initiate anything. I stopped trying to be nice when I didn't feel like it and instead was more authentic-- fun and friendly when I felt like it, took time for myself to GAL, read, etc when I didn't. (We lived together through all of this, no true S though he did spend a number of nights on the futon in the office, and before the pandemic he did travel a lot for work).

I think that the hard part in all of this is that it just takes time, and our spouses are often on very different timelines than we are. I remind myself of this very frequently. I still repeat to myself over and over-- this is a marathon, not a sprint. I only control me.

Journaling:
Today is our anniversary and I am trying to hold it together, but feeling so down. I never thought I would be in this position and am having a hard time accepting the reality of my life at the moment. I know I need to accept it to move on and detach, but it all seems so surreal. Last year we received cards from family telling us what an inspiration we were as a couple, how our love for each other shines so clearly to all we interact with, how lucky we both were to have found such great loves in each other. I would do anything to be celebrating today instead of holding back tears and trying to hide from the kids when those tears can’t be held back anymore. I am sad that he likely won’t even acknowledge today...as if all our marriage has brought to our lives is meaningless.
According to H, it was all a facade, that love, those years of happiness. And I think that is what hurts the most right now, that the story of my married life has been reduced to him lying to himself and me and the world. I know I shouldn’t buy it, but it still really hurts.
I’m just sad, sad, sad today.

Hi Sage

I’m so sorry you are hurting today. Those milestone anniversaries are really tough the first time you go through them.

I wish I had some advice that would help you feel better but there are no shortcuts. Allow yourself to feel how you feel, this is extremely painful to go through. But rest assured, with the passage of time, you will begin to feel whole again.

Hang in there, you have the strength to get through this.

My anniversary was on Monday so I feel your pain. I thought about us all day cried alot. It was really rough. But overall it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. I went to my sister's and ordered my typical anniversary dinner of sushi from our favorite restaurant. I thought it might hurt but that little bit of normalcy helped and being with people who understand and care helped too. Going home that night and seeing my wife not care and refuse to even mention it was rough though.

Hang in there.