Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers 1st Anniversary of Limbo, Indecisive WAH (part 2)

I know that MO now seems to be the only option. He really does need to go as he is unable to get off his own merry go-round, and I’m still on it as well. I don’t want it to happen but at the same time I want it now, and not to drag on for another 2 weeks.

H has returned to the MBR. I’m sure this is for any other reason than it’s more comfortable. But we STILL are physically close at night (but not sexual). I’ve kind of decided that if he’s going anyway then why can’t we sleep in the same bed and enjoy some kind of comfort in each other’s presence. Yesterday I lay in bed for a while after he had got up, and he came back into the room, sat on the bed and we started to talk. He then removed most of his clothes and got into bed with me. This is the bit I don’t get. He pulls me close, runs his hands all over me, strokes my skin in such a loving way, and that’s as far as it goes, and I’m not pushing it to go further as I don’t want to pressure him. However I told him that I wanted us to be intimate and he said he could do it if that’s what I wanted - that he’s a guy after all- but it wouldn’t change anything or mean anything to him, that there’s no emotion connected to it. I declined. I didn’t want to feel like a one-night stand. And exactly the same thing happened this morning. He pulled me close, I mentioned that I liked skin contact with him (because he was stroking my back). He then took his top off, held me tight but that was it. And I know this is the worst thing for my detachment. And I know I shouldn’t try and understand what goes through his head. But ugh!!! He’s full steam ahead with MO, should I be kicking him out of the MBR again?

Hi Pommy,


This is strange, I agree. My best guess is that in his mind he's "trying", seeing how he feels, and also trying to do something for you. A lot of similarities with my H a few months ago... I pulled your comment over from my thread to address it here.


Yes. 100% my H (or at least what he's said to me, I am not actually so sure what is real and what is the justification/excuse for the A that he's built up in his mind). But I do understand now after reading a lot that there is real pain in sexual rejection and especially for someone whose #1 LL is physical touch by a mile... I am sure it was much harder for him than I had imagined at the time. The controlling part too resonates with me. My coach said he can't just hop to it when I suddenly snap my fingers after all these years, his ego won't let him. Maybe the same with your H? And I do also think that we can't force these things, especially if control or perceived control is an issue in your R. He's scared that you're just doing this to lure him back and once he's firmly back in his pen, things will just go back to the way it was before. (My H has said as much to me. I think it is only recently that he's coming to understand that I have fundamentally changed my feelings about sex. I have said to him multiple times during R talks that I simply refuse to go back to the way things were. I am not that person anymore and my life is going to be different.)


I don't know if you've read my whole thread but about a year ago we went away for a weekend and I had a breakthrough in how I understood my role in the SSM and also was the first time I felt sexy and wanted sex in years. We did it but he felt really bad about it (now I know why!!) and said he wasn't ready, he didn't feel attracted to me like that, etc. I also fully apologized and took responsibility (for the first time) for the SSM. Then we went through about nine months of him saying he wasn't attracted to me and could never imagine having sex with me, but randomly in the middle of the night would wake me up for sex. it was always slam-bam-thank you maam (like 5 minutes or less) and afterwards he felt bad, I think because he felt guilty either for "cheating" on AP or me not knowing he was in a PA or what. He said at the time he felt bad because he didn't like feeling out of control and he would start it in a dreaming state and wasn't sure what was going on. At the time I thought maybe his subconscious had forgiven me for the SSM (he was saying it was something he could never, ever get over), but now who knows. I kind of went back and forth between welcoming these approaches and pretending to be asleep, especially as the fall progressed and we got closer to the last BD we always ended up with an R talk afterwards that wasn't positive, so I just tried to avoid it. We had one time where he initiated, I stopped him and asked if it was what he really wanted, he said yes, and then in the inevitable R talk the next day he said it "hadn't done much for my cause" because he didn't feel any major emotional connection during it. I asked him why he even wanted to? And he said because he was trying, and he also knew it was something I wanted. Maybe your H is along those same lines with the physical contact?

OK. Here's the other thing. Six months ago, after BD2 (disclosure of the A but only EA and lying about the length of time) I told him in an R talk that I had been thinking and reading a lot about sexual desire in women and I wanted to have a full and passionate sex life in my future, whether with him or someone else. At the time I said that I really thought it would get a reaction out of him and it didn't. He barely even responded. And I was honestly a little embarrassed I even said it and kind of wished I hadn't. Then the night of the final BD, he brought this up. He said he was really impressed that I had said that to him, especially the part about even if it was with someone else. (This is after he had told me about the full A, I'd asked him to leave, he refused, we had talked for several hours and it was all about our likely S/D.) I said to him that I wasn't satisfied with these random middle of the night encounters because they were unfulfilling for me sexually and that isn't what I wanted in a sexual relationship. And for whatever reason that made him turn some crazy corner, he said OK he could make it satisfying for me, I was totally taken aback and thought he was bluffing and so called his bluff and he wasn't bluffing. Then afterwards we ended up having this long talk where I shared a lot of stuff about my sexual desire and history that he didn't know and apparently floored him (he kept saying I was like a different person). And this (the information I'd shared with him, plus I'm sure the sex though he didn't say it) was one of the reasons he gave me the next day for putting the brakes on MO and wanting to go to MC and work together on whatever happened next between us.

Since then, we have been sleeping together off and on. I was very, very clear with him in the beginning that sleeping together didn't mean I had forgiven him or that I even wanted to R with him, but that I was interested in exploring my own sexuality and he was a convenient person to do this with. At first it was very hot and heavy and since then has quieted down somewhat. He still feels this disconnect that it isn't staring-into-each-others-eyes passionate ML, and I've said I don't imagine it would be because he's in love with someone else... while for me I'm not taking it as anything but me honestly better understanding myself in this arena. Plus it is fun (and hadn't been for a long time since I had lost my mojo) and so I'm enjoying that for what it is. I haven't ever really initiated though I can say/do things that I know will spark his interest and I'd say 75% of the time I do that it works.


Here's what I think on this-- I do think it is important that he understand you accept your own responsibilities for the issues in your R. I don't think you need to overdo it or beat yourself up about it too much. You did the best you could at the time and now you have a better understanding of yourself and your H. He may be resistant to hearing this because it is part of his narrative on why he disconnected or started the EA or whatever (that is very much the case with my H) and you can't force him to listen or understand or anything. So as long as you've apologized, I think that is enough. I'm on the fence about what it might do at this point if you haven't yet apologized, but if you feel you need to then I'd do it (maybe others will disagree). If you do, though, I'd keep it really focused on you-- how you've changed, etc-- and totally stay away from any words that could be interpreted as pursuit, like wanting to try again or whatever.

In the end-- you can't make him forgive you, or want to stay with you, or sleep with you. If detachment is your goal, then I would do whatever it takes to help you get there-- and yes, maybe kicking him out of the MBR is one of those things, and/or not letting him get so physically close. If doing that is him "trying" and he ends up through it feeling like well, I tried, I went back into the MBR, I cuddled her or whatever and I still didn't feel anything-- it is just another way for him to alleviate his guilt and get more secure in his decision. You might also think about Ester Perel and how she talks about desire-- we desire that which we do not have-- and the situation you're describing doesn't have a lot of those elements in there for him (you're telling him you want skin to skin contact, etc).

I guess if you ARE detached enough that it doesn't matter to you, then I agree there is no harm in the physical closeness. But I don't get that sense from you. The difference with where I was mentally when we started sleeping together again was that I didn't care about the emotional part-- the one night stand feeling was with me, too-- I was using him just as much as he might have been using me and that is all OK with me for right now. I told him it was all for educational purposes only and that was true. But just the fact that you declined because you didn't want to feel like a one night stand-- good for declining, BTW, sounds like the right call-- says to me that you are not in a place where sex would be healthy and I might also say that the other stuff is not healthy for you right now either. I worry a little that you're thinking if he only really understood that you're different now, you want him, it could all be fixed if only he'd get over this little hump of thinking he doesn't want to-- everything will be back on track. (I say this because I thought this, six months ago. Like the day I told him I wanted a passionate sex life no matter who it was with, in the back of my head I thought that might turn the corner for him. And maybe it did... but it wasn't until four months later.) This stuff all takes time. I have no idea if we are going to end up R or not in the end, and how long it will take to get there. But I do want to point out that in my sitch, it has been a year since I fully took responsibility for my part in the SSM and apologized wholeheartedly/and have validated about it consistently since. And I think he is only really understanding that I've changed in this area now. And also... I changed for ME, not for him. This is a big major shift in how I see myself and I'm really so, so grateful that I'm where I am now in this arena and it is 100% for me. No matter what happens with H, I'm so glad that this major thing has changed for me. Otherwise I very well could have gone the rest of my life without tapping back into the woman side of me rather than just seeing myself as a mom.

Also, the idea that you're running out of time... no, you're not. He might be MO but that doesn't mean anything in the long run. This is a marathon, not a sprint. You can't force anything and by thinking maybe if you just did X or Y in the next two week window he might change his mind... I just don't see how any good comes out of that. He is on his own timeline and it is outside of your control. I worry that anything you do now will be out of panic and fear that he's saying he's going, and will only be interpreted as pursuit and set you back. Can you just possibly let it all be?

(((POMMY))) you can do this. I know you can.

Pommy, May - I wonder if I might chime in here with some of my own experience that may or may not be useful to you guys in understanding what it is like to be the higher-desire partner in a SSM? Pommy - excuse me for chiming in here when I haven't before, and if anything I have to say isn't useful, please do just scroll down and disregard it.

Of the two of us, my H has always been the lower desire partner. And that was fine. But after the birth of Youngest, his desire just evaporated completely. And when we did get together, it was very sad for me, as it felt he was just 'doing his duty' and while I might have been physically fulfilled (he is unselfish in that way) I was not emotionally fulfilled as I didn't feel any desire from him, or that our time together was something he wanted, needed or even particularly enjoyed. It became less and less and I became more and more sad. Really, really, deep down sad. I felt rejected, unloved, humiliated and betrayed. I really did feel betrayed - as we couldn't talk about it, and when I raised the issue (and often I raised it when I was upset, and my wording was clumsy or harsh) he would basically say if I was a better housekeeper he'd have more desire, or if he had more time on his own he'd miss me more, or if I did x or y or z - and they were all, ultimately, excuses. On top of that, he'd start picking fights in the evenings, or sending me up to bed early, telling me he'd be up in half an hour, then staying up until the small hours until he was sure I was asleep. I knew exactly what was happening, raise it with him, and he denied it utterly and accused me of being needy and paranoid. I can't tell you how much of this broke my heart. If your top love language is physical touch and quality time, and those special times are pretty much absent from your marriage, it eats away at you. I remember even on happy days out I used to wonder why my H was with me - he'd be happy enough on an outing with the kids, but didn't want to be alone with me. I felt like the child-bearer and the wage packet, but nothing more. It was devastating.

Now, in my H's defence, I did not deal with this gracefully at all, and I can totally see how me being unhappy about the times we were together for him not showing enough enthusiasm would have made him self conscious, felt upset, and given him anxiety and resentment. I can see that the more sad about it I got, the more avoidant he became. There's a lot I find difficult to accept about my H's behaviour, but in this, I can see his point of view and feel a lot of compassion for him - and for both of us. So I am not coming here to share my experience in order to shame you ladies. Only to let you know from the other side what it might feel like.

Another thing that might be interesting to look up is the term 'hysterical bonding' which is what happens sometimes after an EA or PA is disclosed. H and I had that - for about three months - after I discovered him in an EA. It was a strange time, and looking back, I think extremely unhealthy. When that all faded away - as it must - I remember feeling rejected and unloved all over again. He thought things were getting back to normal and we were leaving painful times behind us, and I felt he'd been faking his desire in order to keep me in the marriage, and now some time had passed he was returning to his cold and uninterested self. I was terribly hurt about it, and since then it has been extremely difficult for me to feel trusting enough to want to be enthusiastically close to him in that way. There are lots of other factors with us, and of course every couple is different, but these days I am almost suspicious of his desire and I think that's understandable on my part.

Anyway - please do ignore any of this if it isn't useful.

Alison,

This is so helpful to me. Thank you for sharing it. It jibes so closely with what my H has said, especially the part about betrayal, little droplets of betrayal over a long, long time. He said to me that the overwhelming feelings of betrayal and loss I'm experiencing right now, while so horrific and he's not trying to make excuses (even though he is)... he feels like it was what he had been getting through an IV over years and the total amount of feelings of betrayal, if it could be measured that way, might just be equivalent. There are many ways to betray your spouse and infidelity is just one of them. I know I betrayed our marital vows by turning away from him all those years, and though (like your H) I had a million reasons why in the moment, they mostly boiled down to excuses and I truly just didn't think it was all that big of a deal.

Now I have spent an enormous amount of time thinking about this and truly trying to get into the heart of why I felt this way. I read in a book how it can be common for the lower desire spouse to start to shy away from any physical touch, as it can be a shorthand for initiating sex... which completely hit home for me. I would flinch away at the slightest touch. Addressing this has been one of the most important parts for me personally in all of this, not just why I treated my H in that way, but why did I not feel desire. I have a lot of insight now into it and truly now feel like I'm in a very different place, having reconnected with myself as a woman rather than just seeing myself as an undesirable, slightly overweight baby/milk making machine. TBH, I have actually shared very little of what I've learned about myself through this process with H because every time I try he interprets it as an excuse. I think he's still just not ready to hear it as he's still hurt by it, and like you, probably wondering if it is real.

Pommy, sorry to hijack your thread, but I know you are in the same boat as me on this one. I think it is really helpful to understand a bit more of what is going on in our Hs head. And mine is probably more complicated on top of that because he then found someone who was soooooo sooooo into him and wanted to f him sideways every time she saw him, so hopefully it is probably going to be easier in the long run for your H to reengage with you than it was/will be for my H.

This conversation is so interesting. Thank you Pommy, Alison, and May for sharing your thoughts. My mind has been on a similar track this morning and I just posted in my thread about it before coming here. My H brought a lot of negative characteristics to the marriage, but I feel like sexual intimacy was my biggest personal failing. Have any of you ladies read Emily Nagoski's book? I've just ordered it after it came highly recommended on a number of sites.

Pommy, if I may hijack your thread a bit more... Further to the above conversation, I came across this post today that might be helpful for those of us struggling with desire.

Pommy, because you were wondering about apologizing, I wanted to chime in and say I did write an apology letter with the help of my coach, which is something that isn’t really recommended here. Over the three months after BD, I really worked to understand H’s pain around the SSM, and I wanted to validate his feelings as I’d come to really consider them deeply, and I wanted to truly apologize for my part in it, without any defensiveness or explaining. I didn’t write it to try to change his mind. I gave it to him about four months in, and didn’t receive a response (unless you count the short letter he gave me a month later re-announcing his intention to file), but I don’t think I regret giving it to him. Still, I imagine it probably made him more angry/hurt, for all the reasons you and May write about. It gives me some hope to know that perhaps he may feel differently in the future, as others have. I probably put too much out there with my apology too soon—I really don’t think he was ready to read/hear it. Maybe it just fueled his drive to blame me for everything. But I don’t think it is always wrong to apologize for what you come to see as your contributions to the state of the M (probably more succinctly than I did. And who knows how he will feel about that apology in the future.

I’m also thankful for your post, Alison, because it gives me more insight into what his experience may have been. It also pains me greatly, because he never shared his feelings about the SSM with me until BD, and I was so much struggling with my own side of the SSM (which for me, also involved health issues), and did not realize how it was affecting him. He did bring it up rarely, and I responded by crying usually, because I felt a lot of shame and wanted things to change but didn’t know how. I still struggle with feeling guilty about not realizing he was hurting and building all this resentment, but I also know I couldn’t read his mind. I did the best I could at the time.

Scout, I think May was one of the women here who recommended Nagoski’s book—I started it, and I’m eager to read more of it.

I hope too much of this post isn’t hijacking your thread, Pommy! ((Pommy))

Hi all I’ve had a couple of days reflection since reading your posts. Please nobody feel like they are hijacking- this is exactly the discussion I want to have and your thoughts and experiences are really helping.

I’m feeling really pained by the whole SSM thing and that I haven’t dealt with this at all well. H and I have discussed it previously and although I have apologised for my part in it, I’ve never really validated or understood on a deep level how it made him feel at the time and how he feels about it now. Our discussions have always been about how I felt (or didn’t feel) that led to me withdraw from and reject him, and he’s accepted his part in not showing me the love I needed. He has told me he felt worthless, that there was something wrong with him, and it made him very depressed. I feel like there is more I need to understand - or perhaps I just want an opportunity to validate and apologise for how I treated him, without laying out all the excuses.


I have been wondering if there is fear. When I have said to H about wanting us to have a fulfilling sex life he has said on more than one occasion that he thinks I just want sex, but not necessarily with him. Perhaps he doesn’t trust that I could go for so long rejecting him that I could possibly desire him again. I’ve tried to reassure I absolutely desire him, and that although yes I do want sex, my preference beyond doubt is to have that with him and not just anyone.

same for us. He was making a weekly effort but it was far from loving and connecting. He’d then go quiet afterwards, and what we’d just done was never mentioned again! It’s been two months now and he is just not prepared to go there. Like your H, he has also said he was doing it because he knew he had to try and because he knew I wanted to.


Yes I probably am in that space because he consistently tells me that our M is perfect bar the lack of sexual attraction. This is the sole reason he gives me for leaving. (But he has checked me out my underwear twice this week, said my knickers were sexy and that my boobs look nice! I’ve learned to let those kind of comments slide off me!)

Alison thanks for your insights into being the rejected partner. I’m sorry you had to go through this. I really had no idea the impact my behaviours were having on my M and my H’s mental health.

I have heard about hysterical bonding and I did wonder last year if it was what I was experiencing. To a degree it was, although the ending of the SSM came about after a night out and a month before the discovery of the EA and the revelation that H was in ILYB territory. But after the BD i went into this high-desire state where I wanted sex every time I lay next to him in bed (unfortunately he didn’t) . I couldn’t understand where all these hormones had arrived from and I kept praying he’d get his drive back before my hormones packed up again! That was 12 months ago and I still feel high-desire. Might I still be hysterical bonding?


Scout12, thank you for sharing your post about igniting desire. I wish more than anything that I had had the foresight to research why I felt no desire for so long, and the impact it would end up having on my M. It is a great post , and I hope others find it insightful as well.

Cardinal, I too was wondering whether to write an apology letter, not to include my justifications or excuses, but to validate and apologise. Or maybe it’s too late. I’m mulling this one over. I don’t want to do anything right now that might cause even more damage to the situation and the fact he is MO in less than 2weeks

Pommy, a thought. What if you wrote out that apology letter but don't give it to him right now? It can help to get stuff down on paper. My coach also had me write a letter and read it to her, but she said my H wasn't ready for it right now (I haven't connected with her in awhile, and don't actually know if/when will be the right time). She said it came across as too convincing, like I'm sorry! I've changed! Come back and see! and that would just be interpreted as pursuit, even though I thought it was mostly validating him and saying I understood and was sorry. I think you might be in that same place.

That being said the line I did say to him six months or so ago, (about me being committed to a healthy and passionate sex life no matter if it was with him or someone else in the future) that *maybe* was the seed that turned into us re-engaging sexually beyond the weird middle of the night slam bams-- that was a line I had written in the letter, and thought about for a couple of weeks, and then finally decided I wanted to say to him regardless. And in the moment he was totally unresponsive. It wasn't till 4 months later that it popped back up. So perhaps at least getting your thoughts out on paper could be a good first step for you organizing how you feel, and maybe there is some nugget out of that that you decide you do think is OK to share with him now. I would just caution that anything you say along these lines will very possibly be interpreted as pursuit (to lock him back in) or excuses that will only make him angrier. I'm not sure he's ready to really hear it. My H isn't, still, though I do think he now believes my "conversion" is real.

Truly, I would try really really hard not to rush into anything right now, or look at the MO date as anything more than a change that is coming up, a change that might well be for the best for both of you. And just as likely that the space it gives him allows him to reflect and make the choice to come back to you and the R, rather than an inevitable step towards D. Can you think of it that way? A gift you're giving him (and you) of space and time and freedom to choose the R with an open heart, not feel trapped into it?

Your H clearly sees so many positive things in your MR. He isn't being the mean alien who blames you for all his problems. And there isn't an OW pulling him away. I feel like you do have the ability to really slow down and not freak out about this next step-- and in fact doing that will be more beneficial in the long run even though it feels really scary now. Again I know my H and I aren't in clear territory yet by a long shot, but he has said to me multiple times how important the space I gave him to make his own decision and break off his A his own way was, that he really didn't know if he could have done it if I hadn't given him that space, and/or he might have still done it but it wouldn't have felt like HIS decision and HIS choice like it does now. Truth is I wouldn't have done it if he hadn't asked for it explicitly. And maybe what your H is asking for by MO is that space, just in a different way.