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OK, ladies. I get the difficulty in separating out the clothes, that is a PITA. And WF, you win with the fabric softener. But. Wooba. I would put it in a big wrinkled clean pile (or laundry basket) and let him fold it his own GD self. It might not bother you to do it but what is it saying to him?

Wooba, I totally know what you're saying about the work ranting. My H is the same way and has been for a looooong time. I will say that in the past, I did say all those little things you are keeping to yourself, and it didn't always go over very well Now I am better at just validating and saving my commentary or advice for when he asks for that. And the truth is I'm actually interested in what is happening with his work these days and he does ask for and take my advice which is of course gratifying and makes me want to listen more.

Here are my thoughts on the work ranting sitch. If you feel resentful when you make yourself available to listen... then don't do it. So what if he has no-one else to talk to? He made that bed himself. You get to choose how you want to engage with him and if this is something that isn't serving you then maybe don't do it.

You don't have to be a B about it. You could listen and validate amazingly with eye contact and nodding for the beginning of the rant and then beg off... OMG I am so sorry I really want to hear this but I forgot I need to do Y. Can we pick this up later? And then don't. Or you could just be honest and say, I'm uncomfortable having these conversations with you right now, I'm really sorry. Keeping the focus on you and how you're feeling about it, not UGH I simply can't listen to another sob story from you, it is always the same... whatever is in your mind at the moment-- just say this is hard for me and I really am not up for it right now. Is that ok?

This is making me miss a) hearing H rant about work (which is another thing he would say he doesn't let get him down, but I suspect that's another area of his life he'll have to deal with having feelings about at some point) and b) doing H's laundry. Silly, yes, but I was laundry and he was dishes, and when he got his own laundry basket and started keeping all of his clothes in his room, it felt like yet another little jab, another way he couldn't wait to separate his life from mine. REALLY, it was/is probably just him being an adult and doing his own laundry. Wayfarer, I think you wrote on your thread a little while ago something about always thinking of your H as yours, no matter what happens. Maybe I'm remembering that wrong. But that's what I've been feeling and and still feel.

Wooba, when you say you sometimes feel like you're the only one living this reality, and that need to correct him kicks in, ah, I get that. That really gets to me, feeling like I'm the only one, and I need to take may's advice too.

Wait, maybe I missed it in your thread. You know who OW is??


He is struggling. He’s found other job opportunities but those just don’t pay as much. He has his hang-ups about the kind of jobs he wants. Part of what’s fueling his depression is also he’s sending out all these resumes and getting 95% rejection. His ego is definitely hurting both from his current job and his job search process. And ironically it is also his ego that’s preventing him from moving on. Taking a job that pays less to him is like accepting a declaration that’s he’s just not good enough.


Our minds work in strange ways. It’s the same action but I got you thinking of the other side. Which I want to also use your H’s OW as another example- I don’t mean to burst your bubble or to offend you. But if I were the OW and realizing that his wife is still doing H’s laundry, I would think “that’s exactly why he’s here with me. He’s having an affair and she’s still doing his laundry.” I could be totally wrong, but I want to get you thinking. I know you’re not doing it just to signal something to OW. It’s fun and maybe even beneficial for you to do petty stuff and find enjoyment in it. Just like you were feeling good about your H coming to you. I’m not saying that which way of thinking is right or wrong, but I’d be careful of relying on one point of view heavily. It’s the same action from my H - I can say he is confiding in me, finding solace in talking to me, or that he is dumping on me. The different ways to phrase the same action elicit complete different feelings from me.

I think in the end we don’t know what other people are thinking (H, OW..etc), we choose a narrative that keeps us sane mostly. But don’t forget that that is the narrative YOU chose, and it may not be the reality.

For me- I allow it mostly out of compassion for my H. There might be an OW, maybe it’s not exactly sexy to rant about work when you’re having an affair. Maybe she’s laughing at me for doing his laundry. Whatever. Doesn’t matter, I do what I do based on my own assessment. I’m willing to lend an ear (and a hand)for now. But I know it won’t be forever.

First of all, a wrinkled pile!!! Lol!!! Maybe I’m being conflict avoidant here, but if I do a quick cost benefit analysis in my head I think I really don’t mind taking the extra 2 mins folding his stuff.

Work-rant wise- he doesn’t do it that often now. He’s either not around or most of the time he’s saying very little when he’s here. Although I do agree that he’s made his bed himself, I also sincerely worry about his mental health. So if it doesn’t affect me that much, for right now I’m willing to listen.


These are great examples may! Thank you, maybe I will try them out some time.

******
Cardinal- you are lucky that you don’t have to deal with all that! Ha! My H is in his own sh*tstorm right now so the only thing he can do for himself is cooking. That’s always been his thing. He’s told me that he’s been cooking a lot and trying different cuisines. Your H may be more self-sufficient, which is a good sign!!

Another notable night.

H came home and stayed around to talk. Lots of confusion. Anger. Threats. Flip flopping of emotions. Rewriting history.

Ranting about work again and repeating details he’s already told me few nights ago. Sometimes it seems like he remembers he told me certain things but the repetition on other parts- maybe just to keep talking?? I don’t know.

Asked me if I think it’s good that he’s showing up to see the kids, do they ask about him etc. I said yeah, they still love to see you, and we’ve already told them about us, so they know. H: “what about us??” This is where I told him, remember the time when we sat down with our eldest and said that mommy and daddy are having problems.......

H: “well, do they remember what we said?”
Me: “of course!!!!”
H: “do they really understand it though?”
Me: “the older two yes. Maybe not so much S3.”

do MLCers have blackouts?????

Brought up D again. Said we need to talk about finances. Throwing out percentages of what I’d probably get. Asked me what I think...I said the same thing, I don’t want to D but won’t stop you. He then asked me if I think of D is inevitable. I hesitated and said I don’t know but I’m leaning toward no. I think if we are both willing to put in the work we can turn this around. He said nothing. Then I asked him what’s stopping him from D. He said “all the wrong reasons.....don’t want to disappoint our parents....the kids..” of course nothing to do with me.

He then said he just wants me to be happy. “I am operating on what you’ve said before, that you need a man. You need to go find a man.” This is like the 100000 times he’s said this and I’ve denied it all along. He kept insisting that I want out so I can find someone else. I think that ONE time (briefly after BD and before I found DB) what I said was that I’m still young, it will probably be easier for me to find a guy if I’m divorced now than 10 years later (not the wisest thing to say to a WAH but anyways I said it). and this is like the one thing he keeps going back to, accusing me of wanting to find another man. Now I’m even questioning myself- did I actually say that?? (I do have pretty bad memory) so today for like 10 mins straight we were going back and forth on this. I said, look at my actions, I’m not looking for a guy or with anybody. H: “I don’t know what you’re doing. we hardly see each other.” I said okay, that’s true.

I even said I don’t want to deny it anymore but just want you to know that I don’t accept that as the truth. And he started to threaten me and said that “if you’re going to deny this I will take it personally because that is breaking the trust in this relationship, even though the trust is already broken.” I’m just thinking in my head like “wth is happening??? Do you even hear yourself??”

H: “I know what I heard. And if you deny it, I will file the papers right now! And things will get contentious!”
Me: .......(shaking my head while prepping food for tomorrow)

I can’t even remember how I got out of that part of the conversation. I didn’t concede though. Just sort of stopped arguing. Maybe he sensed that I wasn’t threatened.

and then he flipped the switch again and went back to talk about money. And said he will take care of me and the boys. He’d want the house. I said you’d have to buy me out. He said of course, he doesn’t the cash right now but maybe I can take more of other assets. And then he was nice again, saying that he wants somebody who will keep me shining like a star like I’m supposed to. He’s not doing it for me. He said he’s always been too much for me, asking too much, libido too high....etc.

Another weird thing was he conjured up this lie to tell my parents about why he’s not coming with us to visit them this weekend. He wanted me to tell them that he’s busy on fri...and Saturday he’ll let me know whether he can come...”just tell them we’re playing it by ear. Then Saturday I’ll call you and tell you that I won’t be able to make it.”

The night ended with other friendly small talk and him telling me to think about finances. “No rush” he said.

I was so glad when he got out of the door.

I am of the mind that MLC is, in fact, depression. Perhaps a very specific type of depression (ie not chronic).

With depression it is common to have memory issues. With trauma or stress it is common to have memory issues. With nearly every sitch I've read here the WAS has memory issues. So short answer - yes.

Yes. I know who she is. I don't bring it up much on the the thread I try to think of her as other because it makes it easier. She is an old family friend of his family. Her mom and his mom were best friends when they were very young. But they aren't as close anymore. So I'm aware of that connection and that family in our periphery. OW however wasn't a good enough friend of the family to elicit a wedding invite. I in fact didn't even know she existed until he started this mess. I've meet her sisters. I've meet cousins. I've met her mom and other aunts. I still haven't meet her face to face. But we've spoken, and texted. She knows who I am. She's well aware of my existence. Our girls also know who OW is. H has not been exactly discrete. Me specifically asking him to be more discrete with his phone around the girls and the whole don't embarrass me in public thing apparently in H's head were more like guidelines than rules really, lol.

Given all that, that's also why I can tell myself that the laundry bothers her. She's insecure as all get out. And I scare her. The nights he's home with us she will not stop texting him. It got to the point last night where I saw him say, I'm dozing off I was up at 4:45am, I'll talk to you in the morning. She then sent 2 more texts.



People with depression have terrible memories. I know when I'm getting bad because I'm the type of person who remembers names, faces, insignificant details, random factoids. I'm like a sponge. When the depression gets bad I can't remember if I turned the oven off less than a minute after turning the oven off.

Heavy drinkers have terrible memories. Google alcoholic brain. Look at the CTs and the pictures. Holes every where.

Not that your H is having an affair but I don't think the rewriting things thing is affair specific. Their brains are doing a ton of mental gymnastics to deal with the turmoil on top of that the turmoil has them in fight or flight most of the time so there are gaps in memory because their brain just glossed over the details because it didn't need them in the moment.

He will be repeating a lot. And unfortunately so will you.

As far as the latching on to the finding a man thing. I can't stop giggling at that. That's just like Y chromosome exclusive defense mechanism or something. They remember the one thing you said that made them feel insecure and insignificant even if it was just a moment and they won't let it go. Every fight after that it will be brought up. My daughter's father used to do that. And H likes to bring up that in a rage in the beginning of this way before weekly therapy and DBing that I said "Everyone warned me about you in the beginning and told me I could do better, and I could've, there were guys with better careers, more money, more influence, nice cars and things, I had options but I picked you anyway." I get that thrown in my face a lot. He likes to leave out the part after that where I said "Because none of that mattered to me. What we had mattered to me." That was a jugular move on my part, fed right into his insecurities. And now I'm stuck with him fixated on that. Ugh..these guys and their egos.

Oh Wooba! Hugs. You are doing amazingly. I am so impressed that you made it through that whole conversation and evening with such poise and class. (Plus doing all of this with no school? Are the kids at home all day? How the heck are you managing???)

It seems to me like you've really turned a corner in how you deal with him. All that craziness, flipping back and forth-- I can just imagine you still cooking and going about your business while he bounces around you trying to get you to fight with him.


This is the one that hit home for me... the breaking of the trust even though the trust is already broken" and you are able to pull back and think holy cow this guy is spinning, not get sucked up into the vortex of his craziness. That is awesome.

So I’ve been thinking about this a lot today. This sounds so much like the fights I had with my D’s father. He’d argue in circles about nothing. Accuse me of things. Especially anything that was an insecurity. He accused me of cheating so often I finally did it. He’d mush incidents together or things different people said or did into one thing to make one person look terrible and like he was a victim. Furious over things that really didn’t matter or never happened or my favorite hypotheticals. He’d swing from rage to tearful.

I think you not engaging was the best thing you could’ve possibly done. They wear themselves out like toddlers eventually. You learned a lot more quickly than I did. Honestly if he gets drunk now and texts me or calls I have talk myself into being a grown up. I know lots of people have been encouraging it but if you haven’t done the al-anon thing yet you should or alternatively find an AODA counselor that works with loved ones of addicts. I’m going to hope he was sober but his behavior sounds a lot more like my ex not sober. Granted deep into the addiction sober or not he was like this.

I’m thinking about you. And your grace under fire.

May- thank you! I think reading here and being prepared for the craziness helped A LOT. Because many things do happen by the book. So it allows me to detach and not think my sitch is anything special, because I’ve read crazier things here!!


First of all, wow. Your OW situation sounds way too complicated. It seems to me that knowing who she is definitely makes this whole thing that much harder. I feel for you. And this above makes me giggle too. Guys and their egos!!!! Their egos stand in the way of other more important things too much. I know my H has always been insecure deep down. The few big fights we had during our M was when I was out with my friends and either forgot to call him/he couldn’t get a hold of me or I didn’t tell him about my history with an ex etc. he’s always made such a big deal out of “trust”...I know trust is important but I knew there was something wrong with his version. which I think back now and I think many times he turned things around and emotional blackmailed me. It was emotional abuse. I was so afraid. Which leads to now....I have little hope of him being able to have the aha moment to realize what deep sh1t he’s in. His big fat ego will be hard for him to overcome. And then he has always been too busy victimizing himself to know what he’s doing to me.

Gosh. It doesn’t make me feel good but my H sure sounds like your ex. He was drinking when the above episode happened, but I couldn’t tell whether he was drunk. Usually it’s hard for me to tell unless he’s totally hammered. He even told me proudly that he wasn’t drinking that much everyday and few weeks ago he was able to stop for two weeks in preparation of a physical. (And he was going through all the withdrawal symptoms and couldn’t wait to get back to drinking but of course he left out that part)

I’m putting off the al-anon part but it’s on my mind.

Oh, and I need to share this. When I deny that I ever said that I’m looking for a man, he told me to stop acting like TRUMP with the alternative facts!!! This one will go into my H’s crazy quotes hall of fame.