I need some help figuring this out and didn't want to hijack someone else's thread (like I usually do).
Working through my anger (trying to self-soothe) about the sexual aspect of my R, I have several scenario convos re: differentiating. I get stuck on the thought, "Is this reasonable to expect?".
M sexual background: Variety: missionary, W-on-top, M standing and W laying on her back Activities: Oral- for W to orgasm, on M w/o orgasm
I've made my desires known from the beginning of R, but have been refused or ignored. Examples of what I've asked for: oral to orgasm, rear entry sex (doggie style), experiment with positions, fingering her (penetration), G-spot exploration, and some type of sex every three days.
W is OK with Just Do It once a week. I used to be, but not anymore. It's become an integrity issue for me. If she's not going to be involved and/or enthusiastic, I'm left feeling alone and pathetic. Therefore, frequency is nil.
My question is this. Is requiring involvement and enthusiasm unreasonable in my differtiation convo? Certainly, I could enumerate my specific requests and identify what I & E includes, but if she won't hear this why provide the excuse that she feels pressured?
I'd appreciate your input on this as I'm reaching critical mass.
Mike, how much of PM have you read? I'm only asking because I want to know where you are with it. I totally hear your frustration, and I agree with you that a 1/wk formula is NOT a ticket to hot passion and intimacy - I think it would lead to too much formula/technique-based sex, form over function, and not much intimacy. I'm going to suggest you step back from the whole issue for the time being, and really examine yourself and what your desires truly are. You can't require her to be involved and enthusiastic, you can only suggest that you're not into "duty sex", and would prefer to skip it entirely if she's not involved and enthusiastic. However, that still leaves you being "not in control", because she might just say "Okay, I can't be involved and enthusiastic, so I guess that means no sex." That's NOT where you want to go. However, the ball (so to speak) is then in YOUR court to be up-front with her as to your expectations regarding intimacy, emotional connection and sex in your marriage. Your message would be that you don't see yourself remaining in a sexless marriage - it's unfair for her to expect you to live like a monk. So... the two of you have a problem to work out. You won't beg for "duty sex", in fact you'll decline it on those terms, but you expect to have sex with your wife, and you can't promise how long you're willing to wait for her to "step up to the plate". Now the ball is in HER court, she has a choice to make. She may very well decide to choose no sex over loyalty to the marriage, and that is what makes it so scary. If she's going to be really CLEAR on her choice, she'll have to confront herself on exactly WHY she's making that choice. Does this make sense?
I have 2 chapters of PM left and will finish it this weekend. I don't have any plans for a convo before I finish and sort things out in my head. This is just to get on the right track as I prepare.
If history is any indication of what will occur, W will promise to "step up to the plate" but nothing will happen. She'll wait for me to initiate every move for sex to happen. Her claim to be willing is where she hides.
HP spoke to my sitch on another post when she said that if you don't believe your S is being honest about what they say, then it gets difficult to know what to do. Consequently, I wouldn't believe my W if she said that she is willing. I've heard it too many times before.
Quote: If history is any indication of what will occur, W will promise to "step up to the plate" but nothing will happen. She'll wait for me to initiate every move for sex to happen. Her claim to be willing is where she hides.
So then that's where the issue needs to be. Your boundary is around having her initiate. You need to be very clear on this - you're going to wait for HER to initiate. You won't be nagging her about it, but she needs to be very clear that a lack of nagging does not equate to acceptance. If she agrees to initiate, and doesn't, then it won't be long before the screaming silence on the subject will force her to confront herself. You need to remain very calm, at least outwardly, and show her that you are standing up to your end, and she needs to stand up to her end...
Quote: If history is any indication of what will occur, W will promise to "step up to the plate" but nothing will happen. She'll wait for me to initiate every move for sex to happen. Her claim to be willing is where she hides.
I would say that you need to be more specific in your requests. Is that what you were getting at in your first post? I think requesting specific sexual acts of your W might be a little too challenging at this stage of the game. How about requesting that she challenge herself to bring something new to the bed for your weekly encounters. Buy her a bunch of books if necessary and ask her to find something/anything that sounds appealing to her and let you know what it is. If she's too shy to tell you directly she could just put a bookmark at the appropriate page. This puts the responsibility for variety on her and also could lead to you learning what sort of thing might interest her.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I wrote: W will promise to "step up to the plate" but nothing will happen. She'll wait for me to initiate every move for sex to happen.
tim47 wrote: So then that's where the issue needs to be. Your boundary is around having her initiate. _________________________________
Here's W's usual initiation experience. She'll put on a nightgown and ask if I want to have sex. If I say yes, we start kissing and then she lays back on the bed. She shows no interest in me or my pleasure and gives no hint of what she'd like for herself. No involvement or enthusiasm whatsoever about any part of the process.
The conflict in me is raging throughout the sex. Either I stop and say something about it or continue and feel like a little boy who's being "given something". Frankly, I've done both. Either way her attitude is, "Oh well. I gave you your chance. I did my part."
So, by that definition "initiation" isn't enough for me.
How about requesting that she challenge herself to bring something new to the bed for your weekly encounters. Buy her a bunch of books if necessary and ask her to find something/anything that sounds appealing to her and let you know what it is. __________________________________
I tried that before (10 years ago) and it caused a major fight. She told me that she looked at the book (sexual positions and techniques) and began to feel faint. She gave me the book to throw away and said she didn't want it in her house.
Quote: Either way her attitude is, "Oh well. I gave you your chance. I did my part."
So, by that definition "initiation" isn't enough for me.
Okay, so she needs a better definition of "initiation", as well as some information about what you will and will not accept in terms of sex. "I did my part?" Not half! Not by a long shot. She needs to know that simply being physically present is not enough. You need to be clear that you will not accept absentee sex. If she "initiates" in that way, I would decline "the chance", go cool off, and come back and discuss it calmly - that is not married sex, at least not by YOUR definition.
Sounds like she won the fight. I'm having trouble myself dealing with the fact that it seems like we HDs have to really push it to the limit to get appropriate responses from our spouses. They will always "win" the fight otherwise. If we say something is unacceptable we have to mean it. The other day when I confronted my H, he asked me "Do you really think this is some sort of irreconcilable difference" and I told him yes if he won't willingly work towards some constructive change and I meant it. I don't want tobe a bitter, crazy old woman and that is where I would be heading.
You've said in previous posts that you would never leave your relationship because of your kids. If your wife knows this to be the case, I guess she knows she can call the shots. I guess you could tell her that if she doesn't work towards change you'll stay married for the kids sake but you'll just be roommates and you won't have any love or affection to throw her way and once the kids are grown you'll be on your way but let her know that it's her choice.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: I guess you could tell her that if she doesn't work towards change you'll stay married for the kids sake but you'll just be roommates and you won't have any love or affection to throw her way...
That choice really sucks. Just my opinion (recently arrived at), but in that case I'd think you'd want to think long and hard about what such an arrangement would teach the kids, and how that might affect their own ability to sustain a relationship...
