They both do it. WAW's have more legitimate reasons for wanting out of the M, so their motivations are different. They're not leaving because they desperately want something else, they're trying to escape what they see as a dead marriage. WW's on the other hand are usually chasing the dragon.
Well I’m not sure if she is a WAW or WW because she shows so many signs of a WW, but she does have a good reason to be a WAW. I know I can get her to see that this is what she wants, even if she’s gone about this in the worst way possible.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Words don't matter to a WAW at all. Not one bit. So don't even try. Your words should be limited to coordinating stuff about S, and validating when you get the opportunity. You communicate changes to her through actions. And it sounds like you're doing fine on that, but again it takes time so be patient.
Yes and I agree with you that words don’t matter with her. She has told me this before and our MC told us this last week. It’s hard to show her my actions because she won’t even be in the same room with me, except for MC. So I’m trying to GAL and continue to work on my 180’s to show her the person I am.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Just so I understand, she coerced you into moving out, then when you moved back in but the COURT told you that you had to move out again because you had done it voluntarily the first time? I want to make sure I am clear on that because if that is the case, then that is a big reason for us to keep advising LBS's not to move out. Typically we tell them not to because it can create a lot of headaches moving back in later, but this is the first I've heard where the court actually determined someone couldn't move back because they voluntarily moved out. Like you, many LBS's move out because they think they're doing the WAW a favor and that it will increase the chance that she will want to recon later, but in fact it's usually the opposite that happens. As Sandi often says, the WAW has lost all respect for the LBH, that's part of the struggle is regaining respect. When you move out the WAW actually respects you even LESS because you didn't fight for your rights.
Yes you are correct. When I read Sandi’s post, I never realized that’s how she would take it. I realized how she could see that, however that’s not what I meant to do. If that’s the case, then I would hope I would get back that respect and more by coming home.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
One good, meaningful apology is all that is needed. If you've done that then don't apologize anymore. It just makes you look needy to her. That's one of those things LBS's do that just kind of grates on the WAS's nerves. Plus don't lose sight of the fact that she's the one breaking up the marriage, so it's not like her hands are clean in this.
You are so right here. I have apologized for the past 3-4 months for everting, including individually and I’m done. I even told her that the other day. Our therapist has even told her I’ve apologized for everything I’ve done because she doesn’t think I have.
There is some really good advise from AS you are getting so let it soak in. Don't forget to go back and re-read, it really helps drive the points home.
Something jumped out at me that I thought I might raise with you - you posted:
Originally Posted by HrtHsbnd
This is what has been so hard for me to do. Because I’ve been trying to be so apologetic, I’ve let her run all over me. She knows I am definitely alpha, but I just haven’t been acting like it because I messed up.
Alphas are alpha 100% of the time IMHO. It is so engrained that they know no other way. I totally believe you when you say you have alpha traits. I'm on your side man. But we have to face facts - moving out was a beta move. Getting ordered by the court to move the eff out AGAIN- that is a beta result and a ding on your rep even if you fought it - you lost. So is over-apologizing - beta. Spinning is beta.
You can grab the wheel of your sitch anytime and drive the bus. You can't control W but guess what she can't control you either, so don't let her. Regain your alpha posture.
Alphas are alpha 100% of the time IMHO. It is so engrained that they know no other way. I totally believe you when you say you have alpha traits. I'm on your side man. But we have to face facts - moving out was a beta move. Getting ordered by the court to move the eff out AGAIN- that is a beta result and a ding on your rep even if you fought it - you lost. So is over-apologizing - beta. Spinning is beta.
You can grab the wheel of your sitch anytime and drive the bus. You can't control W but guess what she can't control you either, so don't let her. Regain your alpha posture.
The vets on this board know of what they speak.
As far as an Alpha always being an Alpha, I don’t really agree with that. I think there is a difference between being a d and being apologetic. That doesn’t excuse me moving out though. That was stupid.
I realized that 2 weeks ago and decided to change that crap. If I haven’t gotten my balls back yet, I will soon.
If I haven’t gotten my balls back yet, I will soon.
Once they are fully re-installed you are going to feel much better, regardless of what the W does.
On a related note Sam Kinison used to do a hilarious routine on marriage that discussed ball possession, google "sam kinison on marriage" if you need some comic relief.
While this is tough and there are a lot of days that it doesn’t look good at all, I just know my wife and I have this feeling she’s going to snap out of it soon.
Getting the in-laws on board, now that’s a different story.
Originally Posted by Gekko
Originally Posted by HrtHsbnd
If I haven’t gotten my balls back yet, I will soon.
Once they are fully re-installed you are going to feel much better, regardless of what the W does.
On a related note Sam Kinison used to do a hilarious routine on marriage that discussed ball possession, google "sam kinison on marriage" if you need some comic relief.
Well I’m not sure if she is a WAW or WW because she shows so many signs of a WW, but she does have a good reason to be a WAW.
It can be hard to tell sometimes. It doesn't really matter because the DB'ing approach is the same either way.
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Yes and I agree with you that words don’t matter with her. She has told me this before and our MC told us this last week. It’s hard to show her my actions because she won’t even be in the same room with me, except for MC. So I’m trying to GAL and continue to work on my 180’s to show her the person I am.
This is a common feeling with LBS's- "how can I show her my changes if I never see her." You'd be surprised though. WAS's have almost a 6th sense about what's going on with the LBS. They can tell when they're desperate even if they try to act like they're not, and they can tell when they've moved on. They can tell when they've changed as tricks to get them back, and they can tell when they've REALLY changed. Don't worry about how much "face time" you're getting with her, just keep working on your changes and be patient.
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If that’s the case, then I would hope I would get back that respect and more by coming home.
Leaving and coming back can cause a lot of resentment. If you go back you have to do it for you, don't do it because you're hoping it will garner favor with her (it probably won't). In house separations rarely lead to reconciling. Personally I think separation in the long run is a good thing, but it's better when the WAS is the one that leaves because then they have to face some hard realities about what they are doing.
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You are so right here. I have apologized for the past 3-4 months for everting, including individually and I’m done. I even told her that the other day. Our therapist has even told her I’ve apologized for everything I’ve done because she doesn’t think I have.
Right now her mindset is that nothing you do is good enough. Your apologies aren't thoughtful enough, your changes are too little too late, if you lose weight you're too skinny, if you change your wardrobe you're wastefully spending money, if you put on a happy face you're being a jerk, etc. etc. This is why we say to do these things for you, because if you do it for her you will be constantly disappointed and disillusioned at her lack of a reaction (or at her reacting negatively). Your changes will have a cumulative effect on her over time, but not a positive immediate effect.
Originally Posted by Gekko
Alphas are alpha 100% of the time IMHO. It is so engrained that they know no other way. I totally believe you when you say you have alpha traits. I'm on your side man. But we have to face facts - moving out was a beta move. Getting ordered by the court to move the eff out AGAIN- that is a beta result and a ding on your rep even if you fought it - you lost. So is over-apologizing - beta. Spinning is beta.
Quite right. After LBS's get BD'd they tend to really double down on beta behavior trying to appease their WAW. Give her anything and everything she's complained about. Suddenly turn into the world's greatest housekeeper doing laundry and helping more with the kids and such. Wait on her hand and foot. Follow her around like a puppy dog. Beta stuff doesn't attract a WAW back, in fact it just makes the LBS look needy and desperate. No matter how alpha someone is, BD will transform them into a desperate beta for some period of time. It's no reflection on you personally, we've all been there. It's just something to be mindful of during your recovery.
Also on this same subject, wanting to strut your changes around for her to see is beta. Changing for you and not worrying about whether she notices or not, that's alpha. The latter will have far more impact on her.
It can be hard to tell sometimes. It doesn't really matter because the DB'ing approach is the same either way.
That’s good! I have been trying to listen to the rules and do them.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
This is a common feeling with LBS's- "how can I show her my changes if I never see her." You'd be surprised though. WAS's have almost a 6th sense about what's going on with the LBS. They can tell when they're desperate even if they try to act like they're not, and they can tell when they've moved on. They can tell when they've changed as tricks to get them back, and they can tell when they've REALLY changed. Don't worry about how much "face time" you're getting with her, just keep working on your changes and be patient.
So then do you really recommend just totally pulling away and loving on so that she sees that instead of being desperate?
I feel like it’s the same as the other in that I need to find the right balance, right?
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Leaving and coming back can cause a lot of resentment. If you go back you have to do it for you, don't do it because you're hoping it will garner favor with her (it probably won't). In house separations rarely lead to reconciling. Personally I think separation in the long run is a good thing, but it's better when the WAS is the one that leaves because then they have to face some hard realities about what they are doing.
I came back home because I was told to and because I thought I was doing what the best for our family. It definitely wasn’t to garner her favor, as she didn’t want me to come back yet. While it’s best that the WAS leave, do you think it’s any different that I left?
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Right now her mindset is that nothing you do is good enough. Your apologies aren't thoughtful enough, your changes are too little too late, if you lose weight you're too skinny, if you change your wardrobe you're wastefully spending money, if you put on a happy face you're being a jerk, etc. etc. This is why we say to do these things for you, because if you do it for her you will be constantly disappointed and disillusioned at her lack of a reaction (or at her reacting negatively). Your changes will have a cumulative effect on her over time, but not a positive immediate effect.
This is perfect and exactly what she’s said to many people. I have changed and am changing for myself, so that I can be the best person I can be with or without her.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Quite right. After LBS's get BD'd they tend to really double down on beta behavior trying to appease their WAW. Give her anything and everything she's complained about. Suddenly turn into the world's greatest housekeeper doing laundry and helping more with the kids and such. Wait on her hand and foot. Follow her around like a puppy dog. Beta stuff doesn't attract a WAW back, in fact it just makes the LBS look needy and desperate. No matter how alpha someone is, BD will transform them into a desperate beta for some period of time. It's no reflection on you personally, we've all been there. It's just something to be mindful of during your recovery.
Also on this same subject, wanting to strut your changes around for her to see is beta. Changing for you and not worrying about whether she notices or not, that's alpha. The latter will have far more impact on her.
I agree. I did all of this for several weeks, then decided I was done with it. I realized I didn’t have her respect, so I wasn’t going to get anywhere with her until I did. I hope I’ve got that respect again.
So then do you really recommend just totally pulling away and loving on so that she sees that instead of being desperate?
Sandi's rule 25:
Originally Posted by "Sandi's Rule #25"
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
Her rules don't prescribe "totally pulling away".
It's tough finding that balance. We can only do our best.
Well you’re right. I feel like I’ve found that balance, but I’ve just got to keep it up!
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by "HrtHsbnd"
So then do you really recommend just totally pulling away and loving on so that she sees that instead of being desperate?
Sandi's rule 25:
Originally Posted by "Sandi's Rule #25"
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
Her rules don't prescribe "totally pulling away".
It's tough finding that balance. We can only do our best.
