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Hi Yail - I am sorry you are here. You seem to have received some really sound advice and, even though things seem dark right, now you appear to be handling it well all things considered. Your options - beg, cry and plead or handle it with calm and strength?

Which option sounds crazy?

The advice here, and I tend to agree, is something along the lines of "I don't agree with the D. But if it is what you want, then I will not stand in your way". And then live by that statement. Continue as you are. Work through the logistics of the D with dignity and you will come out of it with your self respect and sense of integrity intact. Also, someone as determine and decisive as your W is not one to be persuaded to change her mind through tears and begging. If anything begging and tears will come across as manipulation. She will still proceed with the D but she will resent you for making her feel guilty. Your W (despite the crises) sounds like a decent person - you would not have married her if she was not - so she probably already feels some level of guilt anyway.

You have spent years letting her take the lead - you say she felt she was mothering you. Show that you can take responsibility for your life. Use the tools preached here. Get that zest for life back. Your W will notice and it might just remind her of the woman she fell in love with. The tools (so I am told - I have not completed my own journey) is DBg might bring your W back. 180'g might make her remember the reasons she fell in love with you in the first place, it might show her that you are a woman worthy of her love, GAL and detaching might make her miss you. But there are a lot of might's in that sentence. But, if you do the work properly, then you will be a stronger, better person at the end either way. You will have discovered you, Unfortunately there aren't any reliable stats on whether the spouse comes back. The timeline is equally as unreliable. AS put a good timeline on Burned's thread.

What are your options. Continue doing what wasn't working?

But your question was about hope vs false hope. I can't help with that. That is something only you know.

She can be calm because this is her go to approach for when trying to deal with difficult or potentially emotional situations. She will have psyched herself up before the conversation, replayed the words in her head, told herself how to act and exactly what to say. I do this. My H calls me cold. She is doing it with love because she loves you and doesn't want to hurt you. But that doesn't mean she isn't set on her path (for now).

She is also setting the temperature for the conversation. If you had reacted with anger or with tears, then the temperature in the room would have risen. Her defences would have gone up and it would have ended up a very different scene. A scene she was probably also prepared for. You would have surprised her by acting so calmly. It would have taken a lot of self control. I am not sure I would have managed it.

I would be proud if we can get through this in a civil and dignified manner, and I will do everything in my power to live up to my side of that arrangement. That being said, I'm now aware of my own NGS tendencies (thanks burned) so that's also something I would like to be more aware of in my life and Rs. She needs to know that I make decisions for me, and perhaps not everything she proposes will work as she wishes.

I am so curious and fascinated by guilt these days. I'm sure my W feels guilt, but not in a way that would make her change her mind. She doesn't have remorse. But I wonder what type of guilt it is. I feel like it's logical right now...she knows that after barely 1 year of being married we shouldn't be at this place in our R, and she should feel bad for leaving. But I don't think she feels it in her bones. Perhaps that feeling is what remorse is...and guilt is always a logical feeling? Or is it the feeling you get when you know you're wrong but you do something anyway?



I suspect we all struggle with this. Because I swear I KNEW my W inside and out. I knew what kind of person she was. And I don't anymore. But I think at her core, yes, she's still the same person. So part of me is convinced she will find her way back. And part of me is like, "don't do that. She may legitimately be a better person without you". Not in a woe-is-me way, but maybe she really does need to fly solo to excel. I'm a catch, but maybe I'm not HER catch. Ugh.

This honestly didn't occur to me. Yes, of course.

W was just home again (we're like ships passing in the night doing our own thing).

I saw in the spare room she had taken out the firebox, which is where all important documents/passport etc. is kept.

me: "Are you taking the firebox with you? If so, I'd like to go through it quickly just to put a second set of eyes that I have all of my things"
W: "I wouldn't take anything of yours. no, the box is staying here. I'm only taking my items out of it"
me: "ok, thanks"
W: "...I wouldn't do that. I'm not trying to be...look right now I'm just taking items I need to survive, and later in January we'll talk about what I need and what you need. This is all really hard. I'm not taking your things"
me: "I wasn't accusing you of that. I just wanted to put a second set of eyes on it to be sure you didn't miss anything".
W: "This is hard enough for me. I'm trying to do the best I can".

I really did ask in a very calm, neutral way. I was making eye contact and being conversational in my question. I know she wouldn't intentionally take anything of mine but she has been very scattered, and if she removed any of my items I wanted to be sure that I knew where they were for my own use. She was so flustered, but when I assured her I wasn't accusing her she calmed down a bit. She really is torn up over her decision and that kills me because I just don't understand why she is making it. I really don't. It makes me question the MLC or WW and wonder if we really were a broken relationship? But I don't think so. I was there trying to make it work.

sometimes I wonder if part of her running away is due to guilt over what happened (or, is maybe still happening - I have no idea) between her and OW. I think she scared herself because that's not the kind of person she thought she was. I think she's really ashamed. But that can't be everything. So I'm just stuck not knowing.

“This is really hard.” I got that one a lot. Word for word. And “I’m doing my best, I’ve never done this before,” blah blah blah. WW script. I think they have meetings and their own website for how to do this crap.

And again, same with my W, running away because she’s so ashamed of what she’s done that she’d rather just erase it. Sorry, but it doesn’t work that way.

And also with the “She really will be better off without me.” You and I have a lot in common. It’s what makes the self-help books annoying to read because the standard advice is “if the R doesn’t work for you, quit while you’re ahead.” Garbage. But that’s our perspective. If I’m being as painfully honest as I can, I’ll admit that it takes some courage to do what they’re doing.

You nailed it with guilt vs. shame. Guilt is one thing. These are people who are dealing with shame. Regret is a response to guilt. Guilt is “I did something bad.” Remorse is a response to shame. Shame is “There’s something bad about me.” If you’re not able to tolerate shame without avoiding it, you’ll never get to remorse.

On the other hand, you and I are here saying “I must be a terrible person (shame) and I will do whatever it takes to make amends (remorse). I messed up (guilt) and I’m sorry (regret).” Something like that.

So who will be better off in the long run, us or them? We’re the ones addressing the problems openly, honestly, with strength of character. It’s NGS to think so badly of yourself that you would allow someone to just walk away and think, Yeah, they’re better off without me. No. You’re better off without someone who thinks they’re better off without you.

But it hurts like heck.

Oh yeah, the second one! "I've never done this before". I've gotten that. Yes. Because I'm the expert on divorce and break-ups.

(side note: I'm a serial monogamist. And I've never been the person who ended it. I'm kind of embarrassed about that, tbh. My shortest relationship ever was in high school and it was 1.5 years. SHORTEST! Then another 2 year in college, then a 2.5 in college, then this one - 10 years).


UGH (which is apparently what i say when you're right) She is in her own twisted ways TRYING to find what will make her happy in life. I'm not saying she's doing it in the best way or that she's right...but I do appreciate her desire to not sit on the bench her whole life. She wants to be IN IT.



Right, shame was what I was looking for in my description. Sadly, I think W has a lot of unresolved shame around being gay. She grew up catholic, and her parents have never accepted me. She has internalized a lot of hatred. Have you seen Hannah Gadsby's "Nanette"? If I had to take a guess, that situation is what W is in part going through. She has internalized a lot of shame and hates herself. It is 100% heartbreaking.

Funny, I don’t have actual data but I feel like a disproportional number of WWs I’ve read about here are Catholic. Mine was raised Catholic, too.

Anyone have the experience of the quietly determined W leaving? No back and forth, no temp checks, they move states. No communication except for formal logistics. I couldn't sleep last night and can't believe this is happening.

Seems like a lots of first born child as well burned. Yail, was your W first born?

No, she's the baby. But the only girl, and therefore the only one who stood by her parents consistently. Both her brothers kind of defied them in a way, though are close now. W's only defiance was being gay, but that was never pushed because it would mean ostracization.

Mine is a bit like this. But she has always been conflict averse (hence the passive aggression and the buildup of resentment) and she has always worried about her image as a “good girl” so I think the fact that it seems much calmer relative to other sitches here might just reflect the unique aspects of who she is, what your relationship was like, and how she thinks you will respond. Before BD2, when she was sort of stringing me along (before I got to DB), I was doing a TON of pressure and pursuit, and she wasn’t as quiet. There was a lot of complaining, a lot of “I just don’t have it in me,” “I wish I could give you another chance but I’m out of chances to give,” stuff like that. Of course just about everything she said was to assuage her own guilt, not to reassure me.

She got much quieter and more “determined” when I went dark. But there’s a chicken/egg problem, is it because she is working harder at getting away, or does she seem quieter because she doesn’t have to defend herself against my pestering her? Don’t know. It also coincides with being back in close physical proximity to OM on a weekly basis. So whether or not the A is back on, plus having to really deal with D (filling out forms, etc.), she is really at a place where it’s all in her face. And she copes with unpleasantness like that by stuffing it and acting like everything is fine.

Each WW has her own way of ruining things.