Quote: Friendly I am fine with when the occasions arise. But "friendship" is something different altogether as discussed earlier on this thread ... Mooka, I think your assessment was not far off the mark, as OW has been very pushy about him needing a divorce ...
Maybe I'm feeling a bit cynical due to the recent developments in my sitch, but ... with OW being the major influence in H's life right now, I can't see a friendship that would be any deeper than superficial on your H's part at this time ... or perhaps in time he may try to build on based on nostalgia. Not unless things fall apart with OW will there be a chance at a real friendship. So the question becomes, are you willing to leave the door open if it comes about?
I think the way events unfolded around your website is very telling. It was an oppurtunity to demonstrate what type of friend he wanted to mean to you and I think you sent a pretty clear message back on how you felt about it. Simply, if he is not willing to reciprocate in a friendship, you will accept that and move on. So the ball is now in his court sorta speak. BTW, I applaud the your approach.
Hi Sun! Waiting for the right time is so very important, IMO. And you will know when it arrives. That's kind of where I am with the letter. I realized that the time isn't right this minute.
Quote: Maybe I'm feeling a bit cynical due to the recent developments in my sitch, but... with OW being the major influence in H's life right now, I can't see a friendship that would be any deeper than superficial on your H's part at this time ... or perhaps in time he may try to build on based on nostalgia. Not unless things fall apart with OW will there be a chance at a real friendship. So the question becomes, are you willing to leave the door open if it comes about?
Well, KAW, you hit it just about right there. When I sat down to write my letter, that's the line of thought I kept ending up with. Reminds me of the part in DR where Michele talks about "if the OP is there, you're not" statement. I'm feeling pretty much there.
He was initiating and reciprocating with friend-type behaviors for a good while too... and they often were naturally drifting into more R type behaviors (positive ones!) on both our parts.
Hmmm. Kryptonite??
I suspect that the only way he can push ahead with his D plans is to pretend I am no longer on the planet. Otherwise he will have to deal with the feelings, and that's a pattern with him... avoiding the feelings.
Seems to me if that's the case, that alone would speak volumes. I know if I felt like that about any choices, my gut would sure be saying something was wrong with my plan.
Here's a guy who has told me many times how much he misses me, and esp. "misses his best friend". Also that he knows our marriage was "probably repairable". Who tells me how wonderful I am, how much he cares about me, respects me (still waiting on the actions that back those last two up, by the way), etc. Wants me to not disappear. Yet somehow being with someone he describes that way makes him really unhappy.
Very difficult to deal with someone in that nothing-I-can-do frame of mind. Esp. when you've given them every single thing they have asked you for (and more). If they aren't committed or are afraid of being committed or feel repairs require too much from them or feel unworthy or whatever they feel, we can't control that, of course. But I don't think I can take it anymore.
We can only make ourselves the kind of people they would be crazy to leave... I feel I've done hard work on that, so now I am just being that person with a full life, working on me and "moving on" as H likes to say.
Is the door going to be open later? Well, I'm not sure-- as you say, in some ways the ball is in his court, not mine (really got to stop mixing my metaphors-- apparently my court has a door on it).
That's a chance he seems willing to take.
So... let him take it. I'm going to take a few risks too... (soon as I figure out which ones!!) And I will let him do what he's going to do and not worry about it right now.
I want to apologize for posting so sporadically and not heading back your way. I really LOVE reading your thread, because I walk away with more things to think about.
The only thing I have to add is for KAW too (I am a faithful fan of yours too, darling). I think it is wise not to make any advanced decisions on whether or not you will leave the door open to friendship. Let that decision unfold over time so that you aren't digging in your heels and trying to prove something to yourself.
I have found (through hard, miserable experience) that when I decide something without taking the time to walk the road, I am usually surprised along the way.
I really think that we will know the answers to those questions when we arrive at our destinations (or at the very least, are approaching the station). You will both know in your hearts whether or not your H/CAW are esteemed enough to be your friends.
After all, isn't a friend someone who gives back to you? If they aren't those people, don't lower your bar to accept from them what you wouldn't accept from anyone else. If they really and truly ARE eligible, then you will both find a way to move past the past and work on something better for the future.
I don't know about you, but I've had way too many self-absorbed, "it's all about me" and selfish friends in my life. When it's the weeding out period, they are the first to get Xed. Who needs 'em? Besides, you two are probably the best and most loyal friends around to those who are in your inner circle.
Go for the gold, kids. You both deserve it.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Quote: If they really and truly ARE eligible, then you will both find a way to move past the past and work on something better for the future.
This is wonderful advice and I think we should all take it to heart!
Quote: I suspect that the only way he can push ahead with his D plans is to pretend I am no longer on the planet. Otherwise he will have to deal with the feelings, and that's a pattern with him... avoiding the feelings.
Are you sure we aren't married to the same guy??! LOL!
I see the same thing in my sitch...he allows himself to get only SO close, then he runs like HE**........like Superman running from Kryptonite!!!!!!
Gee, I think I'd rather be Lois Lane.........LOL!
Happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come and sit softly on your shoulder.... (thoreau)
Betsey, thanks for sharing that excellent advice and perspective. I am so grateful for all the two cents that everyone has thrown in here because it's really helped me to sort through my own emotions to get to something more solid.
THANK YOU!!!!
But when I read this post, Bets, one big thing came to mind: Well. I sure have wasting some time churning over this future may-happen-or-not scenario. What the he!! am I doing over here? (big bonk on the head to me)
Quote: I see the same thing in my sitch...he allows himself to get only SO close, then he runs like HE**........like Superman running from Kryptonite!!!!!!
You know, I think one of the best things DB has helped me do is realize that in this sitch, even though I had changes I did need to make, he isn't running from me... but something else. Not that anyone would get that from my convoluted posts these days. But that is clear as day to me by now.
Sun, have you noticed anything you do that slows him up a bit? Or does that change as often as it does with mine?
Hmmm. Lois Lane, huh? Too bad I gave up journalism...
wonder, who is getting out her gold-sifting apparatus
Quote: even though I had changes I did need to make, he isn't running from me... but something else.
I will remind myself of that when his behavior makes me scratch my head in confusion......
Quote: Sun, have you noticed anything you do that slows him up a bit? Or does that change as often as it does with mine?
I can't seem to find a pattern. I just try to be myself and stay positive when I am around him.
I had a thought the other day that life is easier when I pretend he is NOT on the planet...easier, but is it the right thing to do??? Hmmmmmmmm.........
Still not sure about the timing of when I should lay all the cards on the table about a future "friendship".......
Guess you and I have to visit the old patience tree in the backyard...mine is right next to the money tree.....LOL!!!
Happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come and sit softly on your shoulder.... (thoreau)
Quote: You know, I think one of the best things DB has helped me do is realize that in this sitch, even though I had changes I did need to make, he isn't running from me... but something else. Not that anyone would get that from my convoluted posts these days. But that is clear as day to me by now.
Yes, clear as day to me, too. And I don't really notice anything that makes him run faster than any other thing. I have people tell me that I do too much, that I am too strong, yada, yada, yada... but from all the thinking I have done over the past year... H MADE me strong. I would have been perfectly happy to be able to count on him to rescue me, but he was always too busy with his job. It always came first... so, ANYTHING that had to be done rested on me... not that I am not grateful for being so strong, cause it is one of the few things that has helped keep me sane. In other words, it doesn't matter. H is on his journey... his alone. And he sures seems angry most of the time, now. But, hey, who knows why that is the case, either.
Quote: I had a thought the other day that life is easier when I pretend he is NOT on the planet...easier, but is it the right thing to do??? Hmmmmmmmm.........
For now, yes, I think it is the right thing to do... and keep living OUR lives, looking to OUR future, not depending on H for anything, including our happiness.
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Hello ladies, particularly California's answer to Lois Lane,
I'm not going to rehash the convo I had with Mr. Wonderful tonight (you can read some of the info on my thread), but there is one thing you brought up here that came up in the convo that I did not post.
Quote: You know, I think one of the best things DB has helped me do is realize that in this sitch, even though I had changes I did need to make, he isn't running from me... but something else.
Boy, is this telling! We actually discussed this tonight. It came about when I asked him why he can't make a decision about us. And he said he didn't know, because he doesn't know the answers to most of the tough questions.
I asked him, "Well, what questions DO you have answers for?"
He said, "Hmmmm. Well, I know I can live alone and I am not as dependent on others as I thought I might be."
I asked him if this was good? He got a little indignant and said, "Of course it's good. Why wouldn't it be good?"
I said, "Because I'm only asking questions. Not judging or putting my own slant on how you might feel."
Then he offered some rare insight, that I was dying to chew into and dig apart for digestion... but decided to be gentle instead. I asked him if he was happy. He sighed and said, "No. I'm not. And I can't figure out why not. I have solitude, which is important for me, but when I get it, I find that I'm not happy."
I decided to take a more direct approach but keep it focused on me, to negate any feeling of an attack. I said, "You remember when I entered C by myself 2 years ago?" He said, "Yes. Why?" I answered, "Because when I entered it, I wanted her to tell me that I was unhappy because I was married to you. What I found out was that I was unhappy because of me. Since I was the problem, I had to be the one to fix myself. THAT was what I figured out."
He all but admitted to me that he pulls away from me when I get to close or he finds himself thinking about how he's screwed our lives up. He said it's too painful to deal with, so he distances himself... and also shared with me that his time in the cave after he chooses this option is very difficult, and that he goes through periods where he cannot sleep.
Wonder, if what Mr. W. told me is true, I can only imagine that it's true for many other WASs. Right now, I see the guilt as being the primary obstacle. For in my chats with Mr. W. he usually follows up his standard sentence, "I don't know if I could ever love you again" with ones that indicate the complete opposite: "I'm so unworthy and I don't know if you could ever love me again."
Crap, why didn't I think of this when we were talking? It's gonna have to come up.
Anyway, I just want you to have something to chew on. Because I have to agree with you 100%: his leaving isn't about running from you, sweetie. He's still running from himself.
Sign me,
Exhausted in Denver Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Eeek! Betsey, I've had almost the same conversations with my H. So yes, I suspect what Mr. W and my H are saying IS true for many of the WASs.
Here's what I've heard: No, he's not happy. He wants to be happy. He hasn't been happy since he left. His "life fell apart" the day he moved out. That he doesn't have answers. That he's losing so much by leaving us. It hurts. And all of what's below:
Quote: He all but admitted to me that he pulls away from me when I get to close or he finds himself thinking about how he's screwed our lives up. He said it's too painful to deal with, so he distances himself... and also shared with me that his time in the cave after he chooses this option is very difficult, and that he goes through periods where he cannot sleep.
Right now, I see the guilt as being the primary obstacle. For in my chats with Mr. W. he usually follows up his standard sentence, "I don't know if I could ever love you again" with ones that indicate the complete opposite: "I'm so unworthy and I don't know if you could ever love me again."
Oh my. Well, thanks for posting this because I needed something to chew on this morning, something that would get my compassion flowing again and something that would help me in my own journey forward. (went to a brewing party last night, that helped too, LOL )
I hope you didn't chew the inside of your mouth!!!
I was able to fill in more puzzle pieces by playing detective with him again today. I'm going to suspect the same motive for your H... I don't have any answers on how to reassure your H or mine. But I do know that being compassionate and verbally reassuring him that I will not play judge is what is absolutely vital.
Every sitch is different, though. Maybe you'll have another approach that will work better with yours? UGH.
Take care and talk to you tomorrow!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
That's kind of where I am with the letter. I realized that the time isn't right this minute.
Who tells me how wonderful I am, how much he cares about me, respects me (still waiting on the actions that back those last two up, by the way), etc. Wants me to not disappear. Yet somehow being with someone he describes that way makes him really unhappy. 
Betsey
