Maybe I've finally found a place to at least commiserate. You will think I am making this up but I'm not. My wife and I met her first weekend at college. It was my second year and she was only my second girlfriend. I was 18 from having skipped a grade in elementary school -- head smart, people stupid and parents apparently wanted it that way. I asked them. Religious upbringing. Dutiful firstborn. Married a firstborn.
Married 2 months after she graduated. Get along great with finances, religion, child-raising. 3 biggest problems -- libido, energy level, emotional range. I'm high on all, she's low on all.
Married as virgins. Dozens of letters during courtship about what we wanted to do, etc. Heavy petting, sharing a bed at college, but that's where it stopped. I'm 6'1, she was 5'2, 130 lb when we met. Sex was painful for her at first no matter how gentle I was. She's just really small.
By year 2, I was in counselling by myself to try to cope. The 2 week honeymoon wasn't even really consummated until day 13. Should have known then. She refused counselling, tested for low thyroid (low end of normal), wouldn't consider testosterone. She sees it as an issue, but not one worth dealing with, just one to feel lousy about herself about.
Wife was about 160 when we married, is 240 now (at 5'1)
Kids came in year 7 -- lost first baby to fatal birth defect that we found out 2 weeks before delivery. Child #2, a boy, a year and a half later. Son spendt first 10 days in ICU with lung problems and I would die like #1. He didn't, he's just lived with asthma for the last 6 years. 3 months after his birth, wife diagnosed with Cancer -- hodgkins lymphoma -- treated with chemo, radiation. Child #3, a girl, 4 years later, 3 months after that wife diagnosed with breast cancer. Double mastectomy, chemo, radiation.
9 months later, lump in liver. Hysterectomy, ovaries removed, estrogen suppressors, experimental radiation. Can't even think of bariatric surgery or testosterone. She and I are both 38.
Now for my grief: I love my wife. She is a great cook, she homeschools my son and is a natural mother. But she is the lousiest excuse for a spouse of life partner. We are completely role reversed. I am the talker, work-it-out, share emotions one. She is the ignore-a-problem, sleep-it-away one.
On top of that, what woman cares so little she gains 100 lbs? How can a woman not know that intimacy is a part of marriage? How can 100's of letters about sex during courtship turn into nothing afterward and no desire to figure out why or how? Now I have to feel a monster in my own eyes for thinking about sex with everything else going on in her life. In spite of my religious upbringing the only action I get every 3 weeks or so is grabbing S&M videos off newsgroups and mentally working out my bitterness. Again in spite of religion, I'm thinking of telling my children when the time comes to try before you buy. What a mess.
No one knows the real me. I go to work as an engineer, smile in Church, cope with the medical bills, kiss my wife goodbye and say "I love you" in the morning, but she knows I'm miserable almost all the time and we're little more than roommates. I've begged her to tell me if any of her needs are unmet -- she swears I meet them all. Wish she could even just be the person I dated. Even without sex, our physical relationship was bettter than we've ever had in marriage.
We've been to "Engaged Encounter" and pre-marriage counselling with 2 different pastors before marriage. We've spent 12 weeks taking the class "His Needs, Her Needs". I've read the "Birth Order Book", "Getting the Love you Want" and have a shelf full of 50 other books I've skimmed. I've begged at least 10 pastors (none of them mine so as not to embarrass my wife) for advice on how to cope and the best they could come up with was to pray a lot, take cold showers, and suffer through it -- not really bad advice, what could they say?
PS -- the only way I have coped this long is 1/2 a pill of Celexa (a prozac derivative) a day -- it lowers my libido enough and raises my contentment level enough to at least keep things together for the kids. The price I pay is in much lighter sleep -- did I mention my wife snores like a lumberjack and I have to wear ear plugs just to be able to share a bed? I highly recommend the Celexa anyway, it was a God-send.
I haven't seen a lot of hope in the posts I've skimmed. Lots of HD's desperately trying to cope with their LDs and be decent, moral, loving folks. Can some LD tell me why I shouldn't think you are just messed up humans? Can't you see the pain you cause?
Sign me Coping, Trying, but Empty Thanks for the Listen
Hi saphubby and welcome to the club. You will find reading and posting on this forum is the best therapy there is. Write all your frustrations here and you will sleep better and you’ll get a sympathetic response from people who share similar problems although mostly not quite as extreme. Of course the most significant events in your W's life are the death of your child and her dreadful illnesses and operations. Clearly someone with stresses like that is going to have sex well down the list of priorities unless they are very HD. That is going to take a lot of time and work to get through. On the subject of sex before marriage I probably have the opposite view to you. My W and I were students and slept together on our first date (we had known each other casually for about a year before that). I can honestly say that the first year we were together was the best we have had. If you hold back on sex when you first meet you are missing out on the wave on animal passion that you feel as new lovers. We married almost three years later and by then our sex life had gone. I believed it was due to the stress she put herself under organising the wedding and worrying about her father who was ill, money, housing and you name it... I have a feeling that weddings are the biggest passion killer ever invented. The pressure is on for the woman who has to worry about the dress, the church, the flowers, the guest list, etc.etc. Because it is organised (in English custom at least) by the woman and her parents, the groom can feel left out and on the sidelines and the bride can feel that he is being lazy and unhelpful. It is not a good start. I have a son of 19 and a daughter of 16. I am not burdened by any religious belief and I will encourage them to be completely comfortable with any prospective partner particularly sexually before they marry because I know how much pain it has caused me in my life. If my children are not sexually at ease with their fiancé(e) well before their wedding day I hope I have the strength to suggest they call it off (of course I will be unlikely to know much about their sex lives). SuperDave
Both you and your wife are biblically inclined? I wouldn't give this advice to someone who isn't. Didn't Paul tell women to obey their husbands and men to love your wives? You have some authority here and you can use it to help her.
My guess is that she NEVER excercises and therefore doesn't have any energy. Although being in shape is not an aphrodisiac - a sedentary lifestyle can kill desire.
I suggest you walk with her everyday just to get her blood moving. Make it a priority. Take it easy. Use your authority to get her moving if necessary. While walking with her you can talk with her and find out what's going through her mind especially feelings. Walk the extra mile with her. Be her friend.
When you start to hurt remember to love. Jesus loved even when dealing with people with small minds and evil agendas. Your wife isn't even nasty. She's just ill. I've found this attitude contibutes to my own sanity. Jesus will look after your heart when you ask Him. Ask Him. I did and found out why He's often call the Comforter.
After a few weeks she'll likely be feeling better about herself and perhaps will have lost a few pounds. Perhaps then you can let her know you still find her attractive and want to be close and share each other in love. That this love is important to you and you'd really like her to try again. She just my open up.
Remember in the mean time to take as good care of yourself as you can. Relieve physical frustration whenever you need to. Be sure to interact with your friends and have fun once in a while. Pray deep and often and ask for healing for you and separately for your wife - then for both.
Thanks to both of the kind people who responded to my post. 2 different viewpoints, both thoughtful and constructive. I am sympathetic to my wife, and I would love it if she would even go for a walk. She finds time to be a Pampered Chef consultant, to participate in MOPS and other women's groups, and all of her friends think she is a great friend -- and she is.
Honestly I think sex is just not her thing and it kills me that it started practically the day we were married. I always thought the intimacy of a "soul mate" would be part of marriage. I have had a few people in my life that I really connect with -- none that I dated because they were always in a different status of life than I was.
At this point, as SD pointed out, there is a lot of water under the bridge. I feel like my chance for happiness is gone and the best I can do is keep my kids from the same fundamental mistake I made -- I just wish I knew what that was? Probably getting married at 21 was just too young, but it sure didn't feel like it at the time.
NHTom's point about authority is an interesting one. My comment about both being firstborns was my way of indicating that I am married to one stubborn woman and the lack of mutual give and take has always been a part of it. Well, W is right here so I need to click send.
Hi SH - Welcome, and I'm glad you found us. As a Christian myself, I am in agreement that perhaps there is a biblical approach that can be taken. There is plenty of biblical precedence for a married couple to be available to each other sexually. You have the right to tell her what you want/need in this marriage - in, hopefully, a loving/supportive way. Perhaps you two could see a pastor or Christian counselor about this?
BTW, I am a MOPS leader for next year and you've given me a WONDERFUL idea for a meeting topic! We often have meetings about marriage/relationships but never have we really approached the seemingly taboo topic of sex. However, maybe this an area that really need to be explored, and MOPS would be a good setting for that if you ask me. (Then again, I love to talk about sex! LOL)
It is not desired, but if spouses do not provide to our sexual needs, then divorce is allowed. Any Sexual Sin is a divorcible offense in the bible. So if she does not provide sex at a reasonable level, he may divorce her. But of course, the man commits a sexual sin if he does not meet the wifes needs in a way that allows her to be sexual. It goes BOTH ways. In fact, the guy gets the tougher standard, she has to provide sex, he has to provide everything that is NOT sex.
Quote: Honestly I think sex is just not her thing and it kills me that it started practically the day we were married. I always thought the intimacy of a "soul mate" would be part of marriage. I have had a few people in my life that I really connect with -- none that I dated because they were always in a different status of life than I was.
Sigh. This is so familiar. We've been married for 20 years (21 this July), and we've rarely had sex since the first 18 months. My wife would really prefer that we just have a non-sexual marriage. I can't even deal with the concept.
Quote: At this point, as SD pointed out, there is a lot of water under the bridge. I feel like my chance for happiness is gone and the best I can do is keep my kids from the same fundamental mistake I made -- I just wish I knew what that was? Probably getting married at 21 was just too young, but it sure didn't feel like it at the time.
Are you familiar with Gary Chapman's book, "The Five Love Languages"? You can look at it here:
If you are a person who receives love primarily through touch, and sex is a big part of that, then it's very hard to really feel loved when touching and sex are not present.
Quote: My comment about both being firstborns was my way of indicating that I am married to one stubborn woman and the lack of mutual give and take has always been a part of it. Well, W is right here so I need to click send.
You have to get past this stalemate. Chapman suggests that the best way to do this is to find out how your partner experiences love, and stubbornly show love to your partner, without trying to change your partner at first. When you start to see your partner experience that love, then make one gentle, specific request. Over time, you can start to make more. If you focus on sex, and on getting what you need, then it's going to be hard to get past the stalemate.
But it's hard. We're working on it, my wife has at least become open to discussing it, is going to her own counselor, and has started to show love by touching me and cuddling with me.
Quote: It is not desired, but if spouses do not provide to our sexual needs, then divorce is allowed. Any Sexual Sin is a divorcible offense in the bible. So if she does not provide sex at a reasonable level, he may divorce her.
CeMar,
You've said this several times in different threads, but I don't think this is an accurate picture of the New Testament teaching on divorce. In the Old Testament, of course, a man could dismiss his wife on just about any pretext, provided there were a certificate of divorce. Deuteronomy is pretty clear on this:
Quote: Deu 24:1 When a man takes a wife, and marries her, then it shall be, if she find no favor in his eyes, because he has found some unseemly thing in her, that he shall write her a bill of divorce, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Jesus was much more strict about this, and since Christians are followers of Jesus, the following passage has been the traditional standard for the Christian church:
Quote: Mat 5:31-32 "It was also said, 'Whoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorce,' but I tell you that whoever puts away his wife, except for the cause of sexual immorality, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries her when she is put away commits adultery.
You say that "Any Sexual Sin is a divorcible offense in the bible". I don't think that's an accurate understanding of this passage. The Greek word PORNEIA that is translated "sexual immorality" means primarily unlawful sexual intercourse, including prostitution or fornication. I don't know of any indication at all that this word can refer to withholding sex from your spouse. Of course, even in the case of sexual immorality, Jesus allows for divorce but does not promote it.
Maybe you are referring to a different passage. If so, I'd be interested in knowing which one.
Here is a web site that actually trys to define sexual sin, using some of the same passages you quoted. This is where I got my definition of sexual sin. When is divorce ok?
Thanks for the reference. Frankly, I find this site rather misleading. I have a lexicon that lists all of the uses of the word PORNEIA in the Greek New Testament, and none of these usages seem to cover "sexual refusal". Neither do the definitions in the standard Greek lexicons and dictionaries. The word PORNEIA is closely related to the word PORNEI, which means "prostitute", someone who is paid to have sex. I don't think someone who refuses to have sex is generally called a prostitute.
The article to which you refer says the following:
Quote: It seems to us that the word Porneia includes sexual refusal.
But the word PORNEIA is never used in this way in the New Testament, and the standard Greek lexicons do not give evidence of this kind of usage in other literature. Frankly, I find it very misleading for people to cite the Greek word and ignore what all the standard tools for Greek say about the word. It makes it sound like they are giving an authoritative answer that has to do with knowledge of Greek, and they clearly are not. What they really mean is that sexual faithfulness is not just avoiding sex outside of marriage, it is also having sex within marriage.
They go on to say:
Quote: Based on these things, we begin to understand why divorce for forced sexual abstinence would be allowed.
But "these things" includes an interpretation of a Greek word that the Greek language will not support, and they give no evidence that divorce was allowed for this reason in the early church, and they cite no scripture that supports their claim.
The 1 Corinthians 7 passage does not actually call refusal "sin", it says that it can lead to temptation. Here's the quote:
Quote: 1 Cor 7:3-5 Let the husband render to his wife the affection owed her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife doesn't have authority over her own body, but the husband. Likewise also the husband doesn't have authority over his own body, but the wife. Don't deprive one another, unless it is by consent for a season, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer, and may be together again, that Satan doesn't tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
In marriage, we are giving ourselves over to the needs of the other, including sexual needs. Personally, I have never found it helpful to demand from my wife that she pay me what she owes, but I do think that this is helpful instruction to a spouse to give him or herself to their partner, taking a concern for the sexual needs of the partner, and to be concerned about the temptation that may arise otherwise. But it also says that this temptation comes "because of your lack of self-control". Clearly the other spouse is still not innocent, is still required to practice self-control.
I agree that 1 Cor 7 is important, but it is a passage my wife needs to read, not one I particularly need to focus on. I can't demand it of her, and I think I'm already willing to fulfil this part of the bargain if she ever wants it ;->
Now I agree that marriage is intended to be a "one flesh" relationship, and that sex is an integral part of marriage as understood in the New Testament. The authors of this site might have made their case better by appealing to the basic New Testament definition of marriage:
Quote: Mar 10:6-9 But from the beginning of the creation, 'God made them male and female. For this cause a man will leave his father and mother, and will join to his wife, and the two will become one flesh,' so that they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
This "one flesh" relationship clearly refers also to sex, especially when you compare this to 1 Cor 6:16:
Quote: 1 Cor 6:16 Or don't you know that he who is joined to a prostitute is one body? For, "The two," says he, "will become one flesh."
So a marriage without sex is clearly an anomoly, and sets the other spouse up for temptation. But to my knowledge, the New Testament never clearly says it is grounds for a divorce.
On the other hand, I do think we have to recognize that this kind of difficulty can easily lead marriages to break up, and be merciful to those who have divorced because of it.
