Quote: Change cannot happen in every realtionship or the divorce rate would not be so high if true change occurred.
That's not true. Divorce is change. You just cannot force the change the other person makes.
When you make significant changes to yourself, the partner WILL change. How they do is strictly up to them. At some point, both parties will more than likely reach a decision to grow with their relationship, or get out.
Please understand that Schnarch's approach is not changing yourself to 'get' something from your partner. I think this is what is hanging up a lot of people here. You change for yourself. Period. You make decisions to honor yourself first, as the person you are in the marriage system. The partner at that point has a choice of how to act or react. And part of being 'who you are' in your relationship is leaving it to them to decide what those actions or reactions will be.
In your instance, Jo, your H has gone further and further into denial. There isn't anything you can do about that. At some point, you either have to cave or save yourself. By choosing to 'do' nothing, your H DID make a choice. (A seriously crappy choice, if you ask me, but a choice nonetheless).
Quote: By choosing to 'do' nothing, your H DID make a choice. (A seriously crappy choice, if you ask me, but a choice nonetheless).
Kinda reminds me of the old Rush song..."If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice."
Quote: You make decisions to honor yourself first, as the person you are in the marriage system. The partner at that point has a choice of how to act or react.
Granted I haven't read PM in awhile and just re-ordered it; however, I'm still struggling with seeing just what kinds of changes I can make TO myself, FOR myself, in relation to having a passionate sexual relatinoship with my husband. What exactly can I do differently and still not feel this overwhelming sexual desire for him (and, consequently, not feel like that is lacking in our M)? Is changing myself also making a decision to not think about sex? Or just not initiate...? If so, I've tried that before and it doesn't really work. I dunno, I'm confused. (I'm sure I sound that way, too!)
Quote: What exactly can I do differently and still not feel this overwhelming sexual desire for him (and, consequently, not feel like that is lacking in our M)? Is changing myself also making a decision to not think about sex? Or just not initiate...? If so, I've tried that before and it doesn't really work. I dunno, I'm confused. (I'm sure I sound that way, too!)
Join the club. I have to admit, in the past week I have thought comparatively little about sex. Note that I'm not saying I'm LD on the subject, but this is a really interesting thing... I no longer feel "needy" on the subject. First of all, I've been WAY preoccupied with other things, like reading and digesting what some here have called a "difficult read". Yes, it is challenging. Secondly, as Dave alluded to earlier, I'm measuring "success" at this point on an entirely different scale. It's no longer even really ABOUT sex, although that's going to be a big part of it for sure, but there's so much else mixed in with it as well that I find I think less about it. I would NEVER have expected that...
Quote: These books actaully give encouragement to LD women that guys can actully reduce their desire for sex. This is the worst advice possible to LD woman. In order to have ANY hope of fixing a LD/HD relationship, both partners must change, but it is the LD partner that has the critical changes to make. The HD partners changes alone will have very little impact on the situation.
I don't believe this. I think that most LD partners need to experience love in other ways before they are ready to be receptive to sex, and the HD partner can work hard to figure out what makes the LD partner feel loved and secure. The "Five Love Languages" has been a real revelation to me along these lines.
Since touching and sex are so important to the way I receive love, I would like to be able to say that these are the REAL issue in our marriage, but my wife receives love in other ways, especially acts of service, and I think that my job right now is to be very attentive to learn how to make HER feel loved. I expect that to have dividends - but frankly, I'm just getting started. I've been blind for a long time.
I do believe that my wife has a love language other then Physical touch. Mine is purely physical touch. But how do you get a person who can not speak the language of physical touch to become very good at it. I personally believe that physical touch is the HARDEST love langauge to learn if it is not your primary language. Now about the books trying to tell women how to make their guys lower desire, well I have read some of the book covers, and these books are telling the women that they can change their man, so that he meets their needs. How? By REIGNING in his horrible sex drive, and getting him to enjoy communication, affection, romance, all of the LD traits. It seems very clear the intent is to lower his sex frequency to something more that the women can handle and to increase all of the things that SHE needs.
Personally, I am all for giving her what she needs, but the affection and sex has to become a whole lot more closer to MY needs in order for it to work in the long run. Her needs do nothing for me.
Quote: But how do you get a person who can not speak the language of physical touch to become very good at it.
Well, a really good massage course can certainly be helpful. I have half of the training toward a massage certificate, and I've seen lots of people learn to touch in a way that they did not understand previously.
Master's and Johnson recommended "sensate focus" exercises. I have no idea how helpful these are in practice.
Quote: Now about the books trying to tell women how to make their guys lower desire, well I have read some of the book covers, and these books are telling the women that they can change their man, so that he meets their needs. How? By REIGNING in his horrible sex drive, and getting him to enjoy communication, affection, romance, all of the LD traits.
Well, I'm VERY HD, but I also like communication, affection, romance, quality time, encouragement, etc. I have a lot of hunger for food, but the food tastes better if it's cooked, seasoned, and served on a plate on a well-dressed table. I don't think that a nice restaurant is catering to my natural hunger less well than a McDonald's would. This isn't about lessening hunger, it's about enhancing the entire relationship.
Quote: Personally, I am all for giving her what she needs, but the affection and sex has to become a whole lot more closer to MY needs in order for it to work in the long run. Her needs do nothing for me.
I agree. Right now, I'm trying to focus on her needs, and hoping that will pan out in my needs. I've been running around with an empty love tank for most of the last 20 years, and I know how tough it is. But I do think I'm going to have to tough it out and attend to her needs, hoping that she'll become more interested in mine.
I just got it a day or 2 ago. I started reading it. I am taking it with me on a business trip, since I figure I will have some time at night in the hotel to read. I am going to try and go slow so as to absorb it better.
