Divorcebusting.com

Helena, I doubt you want to do anything radical, but if you stage an exit, leave the house saying you want a divorce and act like you mean it, I wonder if your husband's demeanor would change? Do you think he expects you to stick around regardless of what he says or does? It's too bad because 14 years is a long time to hold a grudge. I really feel for what a difficult situation you're in. It's nice to hear he recognizes you're the perfect mother. Perhaps you can compliment him on something too? You're probably trying to follow all the DB rules and complimenting may not fit within the rules, but your situation has gone on for so long that I suspect experimenting and seeing how different communication techniques do or don't get positive results is worth a try.

Have you ever told him that? Without screaming or crying, just with calm and dignity.

Lawyers tell you to NEVER leave the marital home and if you do, ALWAYS take the kids. First of all, there is no way on God's green earth he would let me walk out of this house with our children. So there would be an altercation of some sort. The kids would freak. It would be bad.
He absolutely, 100% expects me to stay in this situation. His text to me when I was considering moving out:
"So we will have kids from a broken home. Awesome. I hope you can live with your selfishness. You have finally crossed the line with me. You have decided to mess with our kids. I hope you are joking. This is a line that you cannot cross back from. Your evilness is so selfish. I will not forgive you for this ever. Don't mess with my kids. You have been horrible to me as a wife but I will not tolerate you abusing our kids. This is a life changing decision for them. F you."
I said
"Do you think I don't know that??? Do you think I haven't cried myself to sleep every single night?? Do you think I haven't looked at their faces and felt like dying bc I don't know how we can do this to them??? You just tell me what the answer is???? Live with a man who hates me and pretend we're a family?? I just don't understand how you can think that's a logical option??"
He said
"If you can do it then you are so below the person I thought you could be. Go ahead and put yourself above them though. They are only our legacy on this earth. But you are more important."
I said
"You just tell me what to do. You said stay here and wait until "something better comes along"?? That's an option to you? We can't go back to the family we were, it's too late!!! How do I un-know these things you've told me?"
He said
"Glad we had this talk. Can anyone be more selfish. You would sacrifice your kids for your own happiness. Stop talking to me. Do what you need to do you selfish person."

So yeah. He definitely expects me to stay like this. Forever. Whatever he says goes.


I can't compliment him on anything right now. I borderline hate him. But yet love him. My Mom has asked me how I can still love him after all the things he's done to me and I just don't know....there is something wrong with ME I'm pretty sure in order to still feel love toward him. I obviously don't love the way he's treating me...but I love the person he's been at times and I overall love the life we built together. And I don't want to give up on the possibility of having it again. Because no matter who I may meet in the future, they will never be my childrens' father. They will never witness their birth. Or me being pregnant. Or meet my Father or my Grandma. Or take me to prom. I have soooo much history with him that I just can't bear to close the book on. Not yet.

Yes, not exactly in those words all at once but pieces. For instance, here is a text from me:
"I cannot live the way you have suggested. I think we need to talk when you get home. I just can't believe you've got this mindset and are willing to throw away all our dreams and our family over something you've said yourself you don't think I meant to do. I've told you a thousand different ways I will make changes to ensure it never happens again but you don't want us anymore. Your pride has ruined everything. You have a wife who loves you, the mother of your children, and you're leaving it behind for pride."
He said:
"But you have made these assurances before and just ignored them when it interfered with what you wanted to do. I don't trust you and it will only happen again. And I accept that. It's who you are. YOU just can't believe it of yourself."

What he's referring to when he says I've made these assurances before is that situation I mentioned where we were at a Mexican restaurant with my sister and her husband when we went to visit them and the kids got cranky and needed to go home. I asked him if he minded if I stayed and had another margarita and he told me yes he minded and reminded me that I agreed I would never go out without him again. The agreement was that I would never go out to a bar without him again, like OUT OUT. This was at a restaurant during daylight hours with my sister and her husband and there was no one else even there! We were sitting outside by ourselves. I decided in that moment that if I let him bend the agreement to whatever situation he wanted, I would be living under his control forever regardless of what my OWN feelings were. So I stayed and he's clearly NEVER forgiven me for it.
When I tell him what the agreement meant to me as in the following text:
"We stayed at a dinner place where you were WITH me for another margarita after you left? That's "going out"?
He says:
"So if a restaurant turns into a bar that's fine then. Man, we should have clarified that. Or we could just trust our partner's feelings. But you have justified that via a technicality. Brilliant."

The restaurant did not turn into a bar. Yes, they had a bar there that made drinks but it was not a "bar". I just get so frustrated, there is nothing I can say that matters.

My biggest advice to you is to never text about anything important. That is a disaster. I went down that rabbit hole a year ago, and it was a huge mistake.

Texts are impersonal. You don't see the reaction of the person you're texting to. It is VERY easy to be nasty over text. Do not give him that power. Calls are better, but then you give him the power to hang up. Any discussion of your relationship should be conducted face-to-face only.

Now, from what you wrote just now... it just doesn't carry the same message as what I quoted. Read both excerpts and think about how each comes off. You want to sound like the first one. It'll take practice. You might have to rehearse what you say. When you do say it, do it calmly and in a level voice. Don't cry. Do not allow him to interrupt. And when you're done, walk away.

I don't think that this is the best time for you to have this conversation, but you will have to have it eventually. Make sure the time is right and make sure you're holding stronger cards than he is when this conversation happens.


Now, as far as getting a life goes, you can do it and you need to do it. It doesn't have to mean that you go out all the time. Take up an exercise class. Buy a book and read it. Rent Oscar nominated movies and watch them. Start unloading more of your parental duties onto your husband. Don't ask - just tell him what you need him to do. What not to do: "Would you mind making dinner for the kids tonight? I'd really like to go see a movie." What to do: "I need you to make dinner tonight. I'll be running a little late - let me know what you're making and I'll buy the wine."

He's not responsive, so, don't initiate relationship talks. Work on getting a life and memorize what you will eventually tell him.

Your situation is so bad for your kids. It didn't take 4 years for your son to notice that his parents don't sleep together. It took 4 yrs for him to mention it... He knows it's not right, but you know what? It's what he will come to know as normal. This disfunctional dynamic is shaping your children and their expectations for relationships...

Your husband is unreasonable, and you will never be able to reason with him. You can try all you want to be the woman he married, but you will never achieve that. In his eyes you are tainted. And he is unteachable... He is set on being miserable, and it's because he is set on making you miserable. That is what is most important to him.

He calls you selfish. HE is the selfish one. HE is putting himself above his kids, not willing to work on the marriage, which is the foundation of his family.

Do you care that he thinks you are so selfish for not wanting to go on this way? You shouldn't... He is an unreasonable, selfish and cruel man. His opinion is worth nada... He doesn't have the last word on what happens with your kids. He loves his anger toward you more than he loves his kids... That is what he has shown you...

Of course he is going to think you are selfish for GAL... Most Walkaways do... But you have to get to the place where his opinion does not guide you... He already has a low opinion of you anyway... He already thinks you are selfish...

What you are doing is not working. You need to change things up. You need to put your mental, physical and spiritual health above his opinion of you... And you need to put your children above your love for him...

You said it: He is egotistical, manipulative and a master at mind games... Why would you give someone like that top consideration?

This is probably a good idea. If he tries to text again, I'll simply say "I don't want to text about our relationship anymore. If you want to talk, it needs to be face to face. I know our time is limited but we can schedule a time to talk."

With that being said, it will be interesting to see if he initiates any relationship talk because this was our last interaction:
Him:
"Just listened to River of Dreams and it reminded me of our youth. What happened to us? Our love was so pure back then. I still feel that I am that same guy. My heart has been betrayed too many times."
Me:
"I'm sinking...I see your face at the surface but it's farther and farther and farther away. You're speaking but I can't hear what you're saying. I'm closing my eyes. Letting myself fall. Goodbye my love."
Him:
Goodbye then I guess. This really [censored] because I still love you and care for you. But I understand your perspective. I should be so angry, but I have come to the realization that we are who we are. I have accepted that you are you and you need something beyond me. I am fine with that. I got it, you have checked out. I really appreciate the thought you have given to my feelings."

I did not text him back until the following morning when I said:
"*I* checked out? I've been paying pretty close attention and I'm pretty sure that's not what happened. I'm sorry if it didn't seem like I gave any thought to your feelings...as I'm sure you must know after all our conversations, that isn't the case and not surprisingly I'm sure, it feels quite the opposite to me as I can't recall the last tine you asked or seemed to care how I am feeling. I do know however that there is nothing I can say that you will believe, you have the facts as you see them solidified in your mind. I still have some hope that the man who loves me will come back for me, I watch for him every day."

So we left it at this sort of "goodbye" because I truly can't handle his random texts that tell me how horrible I've been. I just get to a place where I feel like I'm doing ok and bam. I can't do it.


I would not have noticed that if you hadn't said anything...but now that I read them back, I can see that my post here was from a place of....strength? Whereas my text to him was pleading. Is that what you see too? I guess that makes sense bc that text was right after he told me that he never wanted to be a couple again. I think everyone whose in my position makes that mistake, ha. But tell me more on what you see here bc I think this is probably my biggest weakness. I know I've hurt him and I've tried to let him express that unchallenged. But like I said, it's gotten to the point where it's crossed the line into emotional abuse and I think both you and 25yearsmlc are saying the same thing-I get to matter. My opinion and my feelings get to matter.



From this perspective, I do have a life. I go to the gym when I can, I get up and run in the mornings, I watch Grey's Anatomy independently, I go for walks, I watch This is Us and The Bachelor (shush, lol) with my daughter, I get my hair and nails done...I very rarely read or watch movies bc I'm exhausted at night. Today I took my oldest son and his girlfriend and my two little guys to a local she crab soup tasting contest (H and oldest daughter are at a soccer tournament). So I do stuff, I definitely do.


This is my 180 for sure. I bring up NOTHING. Which is so hard when I see my life slipping away and I wonder if I've made it clear enough how sorry I am, how much I want to be married to him, etc. Makes it even harder when I know this is the stuff he craves to hear. Is it the right decision NOT to say it? I don't know. But I couldn't say it right now regardless so I guess it doesn't matter.

I don't know about this. Our kids are smart, talented and amazingly well adjusted. H and I have had a great facade over the years. Some of the years it didn't even feel like a facade....like I said, we had a really good 6 years after the OM situation. It wasn't until the company party that things took a turn. And even during the past 4 years, things have been somewhat normal...H and I still showed affection, we still held hands, had sex, texted/called all the time. It's been the last two years...since my Dad died....that he has really pulled back and I have my suspicions about why that is, it's a long story, but the short version is that I've had to fly back home to MI more often to help my Mom. So, I've taken unaccompanied trips home and didn't really consult him on whether or not it was "ok" to go without him because my Mother needs me. He's never said, but I really think that this show of independence has thrown him for a loop.
Anyway, back to the point....our kids have been very happy and on that you'll just have to take my word. Now that things are so much more tense and obvious...I agree with you. Not a great situation for them. But it's only been a couple of months. Not the greatest situation but would still be the lesser of two evils if we can work it out.


When he is angry with me or disagrees with me this is absolutely true. Luckily, we agree on most things and as for the things we don't, I'm easy going and that helps our R tremendously. I'm not super opinionated and I usually just let him have his way. And I usually truly don't mind.


I definitely feel this way as well. That's why I say if we divorce, I really don't think it's my choice. He's already made the choice.



This is exactly what my mother, sister and IC keep asking and telling me. It's been a very long time since I've had to think about these traits he has...and come to terms with the horrible things he does. When we went through this 14 years ago it was just as bad if not worse in some aspects. But I felt sooo much guilt that I just took it all on and was able to blame myself rather than him which allowed me to keep trying to be what he needed. This time I have bouts where I struggle with blaming myself, but overall, I can't blame myself enough to warrant the things I know I have to do to get this straight again. My heart or my head or some part of me just won't let me betray myself even though I really want to sometimes. I just can't. It's weird.



My IC keeps telling me that my mental health is important and something I need to think about. I just can't see separating as putting my children above my love for him because they are happy. They are. Way happier than they would be if we separated. I would do anything for them-if I thought they would be better off, my guilt about separating would be alleviated by a ton. But they would not be better off. They wouldn't.

This is still too much. Just say "This is not a text message conversation. I'll be home [insert time here]. We'll talk then."

When you do get home, do NOT approach him to have this conversation. If he wants to talk, let him start. You should act as if you forgot all about it.


So... for some people, melodrama can be its own "high" and its own reward. Stop participating in it. The only appropriate answer to "what happened to us" is "you gave up on our marriage." Do not try to explain to him what happened. Do not attempt to substitute your version of events for his. Just do not engage in this type of talk at all. If he tells you that he wasn't the one who gave up, tell him that he sure made a good impression of it. And then leave. Don't storm off. Just walk away. Do not feed this poetic melancholy. Let Lord Byron stew in his own misery.


That is exactly what I see. You've been focusing a lot on his hurt, and you're not really acknowledging how much he has hurt you. It comes through when you talk to him about your relationship, but that is not the best time or best way to express it.


Do more. Slowly shift more and more of your tasks onto your husband. Start with things you like to do the least.


I'll make it easy for you. He owes you an apology. Until he's ready to apologize, what have you two got to talk about?

It's also because he's drunk. He usually only texts me when he's drinking. This is another way I've devalued myself because I take what I can get. If I tell him no texting, then we'll likely never talk. My text back to him was also dramatic...not usually my style but it was definitely reflective of what I'm feeling. Being specific and trying to solve issues has gotten me nowhere...I was on pain medication and recovering from a surgery and even while his wife is in that condition rather than check on her or be kind he chooses once again to focus on himself and berate me when he knows I am weak and very vulnerable. At that moment I really did feel like I was sinking....like I could still see his face and knew he was talking but that I just couldn't listen anymore. I have to move on past this "betrayal" and "heartbreak" talk. Over and over and over like a broken record he goes on.
So, with a no texting policy, it could be a VERY long time before we ever speak of our R again. But like you said...what is there to talk about? He's made his position clear and I've said my piece. Perhaps not in the most appealing way, but as I read on another thread....if the WAS wants to make things work, they will. Come hell or high water.



This would not work. One of the ways he tries to get under my skin is to purposely NOT help out around the house. If I "shifted" my responsibilities to him, I would be shifting them out into the ether. He does things when he WANTS to. Not when he's TOLD to or EXPECTED to. He will fold the kids laundry if it's in the dryer when he needs to wash his clothes. He will make dinner for the kids if he wants to. He will do the dishes he directly dirties them and leave everything else. He does not "clean". I can't do it all myself with the busy life we have so I hired a cleaning lady that comes every other week. She's my lifesaver and has helped ease the resentment I would feel when spending my free time cleaning while H laid on the couch either sleeping or cuddling with the kids watching TV.
My IC says I've grown up. He seems to want me to go back to a young girl's mentality where I depend on him for my happiness. Here's a directly related text string on this:
Him:
"You just don't NEED me like I need to be needed. At the same time I would willingly NEED you. That is just a concept that you can't comprehend and has passed us by. It is just not in your makeup. And that is fine. I have finally accepted that. I realize my intensity and I know that it is impossible to accept. But that is me."
I said:
"I love you with my whole heart. Even after this long there are things that we need to keep learning about each other keep CARING TO FIND OUT. I need to feel safe with you too....I do have more love in my heart that is probably untapped for lack of a better word. Half the time I'm scared to death of you-you have the power to hurt me like no one else. And you do not hesitate to use it. I have learned to NOT need you as much as I feel in my heart bc you hurt. You hurt me. Someone you love is not supposed to say things like that to you, treat you like that, ignore you like that, act disinterested like that....and I am afraid of you."
His only response to that was:
"I am not asking anything of you."

When someone you supposedly love tells you what I told him and you say NOTHING?
His lack of response makes me feel that he does all of those things to control me and he is fully aware he's doing it. I mean, if he said that to me, I would be so astounded....those are not normal things for a partner to feel!!! His lack of response just confirms to me that he knows full well what he's doing. Maybe what I said even made him feel good, reinforced that what he's doing is being noticed and is "working". I have no idea. I feel like I am just not on the same level to understand someone who would be capable of treating another person like that.