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Agree with Sandi, your mistake was that when she started yelling at you, you should have pulled the car over and told her to get out, and then driven away.

If you don't stand up for yourself, she can't count on you to stand up for her, and in that context she has to be the leader and doesn't feel "safe" in a relationship with you.

Although standing up to her will make her furiously angry in the moment, that is the RIGHT outcome when she's acting like an ass. Although she will be outwardly angry at you, she will respect you more and feel better about you, and that is FAR more important than restoring the peace in the moment.

Repeat this phrase to yourself over and over until you believe it: "She doesn't like it? Too bad."

Acc

sandi,


As I have said, I want honest feedback.

I posted this interaction because I knew it went terribly wrong and I want to learn from my mistakes.

That being said, I do have to disagree with some of what you said about the interaction in front of my son.





I agree 100%.





This I diagree with and here is why.

When I said she went "b@tsh!t crazy," I mean off the charts psycho. There was no calming her down and the situation needed to be deescalated immediately. I had an eight year old in the back seat who was terrified. After this incident he clung to me the rest of the night and would not talk to my W. He did not need to witness what was happening.

A little background on myself to help explain my position on this.

I grew up with a manic depressive, bipolar alcoholic father and I witnessed many such interactions between him and my mother growing up. The main difference being that he was always the aggressor.

I still remember the anxiety and fear I felt then so strongly it is as of it happend only yesterday. The thing is, its been 40 years. I don't know if you have ever been in a situation like that, but it is something that always stays with you. I have recurring dreams about it still to this day. I yell in my sleep when I have them. Sometimes I wake up, sometimes my W has to wake me to get me to stop.

I have never told anyone about these dreams - not even my W. Until now that is.

I'm not telling you this for sympathy. I am telling you so you understand why I shut it down the way I did.

If my man status had to go down a few notches to protect my son from having memories like this, so be it. I would rather that than the alternative.






This is how we both have been lately. I started doing this as well when I started trying to do what you recommend. Admittedly, it does come easier to her.






What would have been a better response?




He definitely thinks his mother is. More explanation on that in another post. I have some questions on the kids I need to ask tomorrow.




I see that now.



As I said, thick skin.



At first I thought you were calling me a psychopath since that is essentially what the first ten articles on "nice guy syndrome" were saying. I finally found a couple that explain it in context of marriage and yes, I can see that I do have some of those tendencies with my W.





After the fact, yes, I could.





I knew I messed up because I didn't feel like I gained any ground by the time it was over.

I don't get it. She is the only one that can do that to me.

I never realized it until this started.

That is essentially what I was telling myself when that interaction started.

I don't think I have detached as much as I thought I had. Any tips on doing this quickly?

Build your relationships outside of the marriage. If you have a network of people who like you, care about you, and hold you in high esteem, you will care less about what your wife thinks of you because your perception of your value won't be solely invested there.

Now I have some questions about what I should be doing about my kids.

My W and I have five children, S23, D21, D18, D14, and S8 (just turned). All of them are my W and my biological children and all are still living at home; D21 and D18 are in college. S23 was a Junior in college when he had to put it on hold due to a medical condition that will sometimes keep him in bed for days at a time. They all have jobs (the only thing keeping S23 sane at the moment) but do not make enough to support themselves. S23 cannot live on his own at this point.

Since this has started, my W’s relationship with all of them has been steadily going downhill. S23 knows something is wrong, but takes the approach that it isn’t his problem. Can’t blame him since he has enough on his plate trying to maintain his health, although I can tell this is affecting him. I have not had a conversation with him about this yet.

We homeschool, so D14 and S8 are around my W constantly. They are not the stereotypical homeschooled kids, so don’t think that they lack in social skills. They are very outgoing and have many friends who go to public schools.

I have been trying to give more attention to S8 and reassure him all that I can that both his mother and I love him very much. He has said to me on one occasion that my W spends too much time playing with her phone. Another occasion he told me that “mom is crazy.” I dismissed this as him repeating what he has heard his sisters say, but I have been told about other things he has said which I will get to later.

I have had conversations with my three D’s, mostly trying to reassure them that I am doing what I can to get my W back in to the family. I have never pried for information nor have I told them exactly what is going on. I have, however, told them that if there is anything they want to talk about, I was there to listen. They could say whatever they wanted and it would stay confidential. If they don’t want to talk to me about it, that would be fine too, but don’t keep it inside and let it eat them up.

D14 is my W’s “mini me” and is very close to her. She is doing her best to pretend that this is not happening, but she knows something is up. She is fiercely loyal to my W, but has opened up slightly to me and said that my W is more of a friend than a mother now and that W is letting her and S8 get away with a lot more than she ever has. D14 has said that my W’s patience is much shorter than it used to be and D14 really doesn’t talk to mom that much anymore and doesn’t care to be around her as much either. She has also complained about her phone usage, nights out, rarely cooking anymore and stated that she would “rather have her mom, not a friend.”

D23 and D18 have been a little more candid about it and I have had two in-depth conversations with the both of them at the same time. The first was a few days after New Year’s Day and the second was Monday night after my W and I got home from S8’s meeting.

The first conversation we had was shorter and this was the first time I tried to reassure them. They didn’t open up much, but did say a few things. They both believed that my W is in a MLC, which was the cause of her treating me the way she was and her constant nights out. At this point my wife had been out nine of the previous 15 nights. They also said they didn’t want to be around her and that she was obsessed with her phone and Facebook. W discovered Facebook in September or October and started finding old friends, mainly from high school, and this is who she has been telling us that she is going out with along with her two best friends. They were also tired of her complaining and “b!tch!ng,” as they put it. When I said I was doing all I could, D18 said that she hopes mom comes back before she does anything “more stupid that she has already done.” When she said it, it sounded like she was trying to give me a hint as to what was going on. I left that comment alone, but I do believe that they both either know about the A, or at least strongly suspect it and do not want to be the ones to break it to me. I don’t want them to do that either, so I don’t come close to that subject.

Conversation number two was much more open and bleaker than I expected. I learned some things that I had no idea about and are shocking to me.

Earlier in the evening my W was still mad about earlier events and was not being nice to anyone. D21 lipped to me “She’s f***ing crazy” when my W snapped at D21 from the other room. Later, I went to their bedroom to tell D18 something, and D21 asked me what “mom’s problem is now.” I closed the door and gave them a brief synopsis on what had happened between us that evening. No real details, but enough to let them know that something had occurred.

This is when D21 started talking. A lot. She told me how she felt about the situation and that her mother “needs to stop acting like a child” and get “over herself.” She also said that she couldn’t believe anyone could destroy their family the way my W was. She also couldn’t understand how a mother could hurt her kids like this, especially D14 and S8. They both also told me that they are tired of my W’s “party girl” attitude and that the last time my W asked D21 to play taxi service to the younger kids, she replied (in a text message) “Why? So you can go out drinking again?” My wife didn’t reply and wouldn’t talk to her for days after that. I tried to explain to them that my W is not in a good place right now, so we need to give her some space to sort it out. Arguing with her was not going to do any good.

She went on to tell me that she doesn’t want to talk to her and doesn’t even like to be in the same room with her mother. D18 echoed these feelings. I told both D21 and D18 that I had noticed that when my W is not home they will come out and socialize with the rest of the family, but as soon as my W gets home, they both leave for their bedroom. I also told them that it makes me sad to hear because they were always so close to their mother and that I’ve always been a bit envious of their relationship, but I don’t want to see it end though. D18 said that she has never really felt that close to her mother until the past couple of years, but now it is all but gone. D21 said that their relationship will never be the same. Especially since my W told her a few weeks ago that it was “time for her to move out.” This was the first I had heard of this.

I told D21 that she had a home here no matter what her mother says. I promised all of my kids free room and board while they were in school and since I can’t pay for school, I can at least do that for them. Kicking her out now would be devastating to her plans for her education, so she can stay as long as she needs to.

The conversation then moved to things that had been said between D21 and S8. They both have always been close and D21 is almost like a surrogate mother to S8 at times. D21 told me that S8 was telling her how he doesn’t like the way my W is acting, asking why she is always texting and that I am his “new favorite parent.” While that makes me feel good to know he loves me, it hurts to know she is hurting him this way. D21 also told me that D8 said that D14 would make a better mother to him than my W. Ouch. A few other things that he said were told to me and they are just as sad and indicate he does not like what my W is doing.

I asked D21 if she had tried talking to my W and she said she had, but W would not listen to her, dismissed what she was saying and got mad. D21 then said she is thinking about sending a text to my W telling her these things, especially what S8 has said, because she knows she will read it all. I asked her to hold off on this idea for a little bit.

Aside from what I have been told from the kids, I have noticed a major change in their relationships with their mother. They have been lashing out at her more and being very passive aggressive at times. They are tired of her binge watching Netflix, so one of my daughters changed the password and claimed she didn’t know what happened. My W’s phone charger disappeared and I know one of them took it for the same reason.

So, my questions are:

1. Should I say anything to my W about what the kids are saying or would that be futile at this point? I am leaning toward the latter, but it is very hard to watch this happen. She was always an awesome mother, but now she just doesn’t seem to care.

2. Is there anything I or the kids could do to snap her back to reality at least with them?

3. Should D21 send that text to her mother? Would it make things worse for them or between my W and me? Would she even listen? If things get worse for my W and me, I could deal with that. I don’t want to see the kids lose their mother in the process though.

4. If the text is sent, what should and should not be said that would drive her further away?


I know my W is starting to blame everyone in the house for her actions (I heard her say the other night "why is everyone here so mean to me?"), so is she just going to continue to justify her A even at the kids expense?

Any input would be appreciated.

Hmm, on the contrary I would empower them to speak up to your W and establish boundaries about how they will and will not be treated. By advising them to give your W space and not argue, you're basically telling them to just roll over and accept whatever treatment they're given. I don't think that's a good message for them.

They shouldn't be passive aggressive, they shouldn't be disrespectful, but they *should* absolutely stand up for themselves.

Another thing I have to ask is if your W is the homeschool teacher? If so, it may make sense to put them in a regular school given her current state of mind. It would probably also be good to get them out of the house for several hours a day given everything that's going on.

Are you open to having them attend school?

In terms of your questions:

1) No, she won't care what you have to say about it

2) No. The kids should stand up for themselves and you should back them up if your W is acting inappropriately toward them or speaking inappropriately toward them.

3) D21 should feel empowered to express how she's feeling however she wants to do it, including via text. You should not be in the middle of that as if W feels you're influencing D21 she will disregard what D21 has to say.

4) That's not the point, D21 isn't playing a game to try to entice W back, she's trying to express how she feels. That should be the focus. W doesn't like it? Too bad.

I strongly suggest you get some DB coaching or "nice guy" coaching via in-person or over the telephone one on one.

You've become programmed to defer to your wife, accept her abuse, and put her needs and feelings above your own.

Continuing to act that way while your W is off the reservation is going to make your situation worse and will be a bad example for your kids, but you're not going to be able to stop doing it alone, your whole perspective of "the right thing to do" is off center based upon how you've been treated and how you've been living.

You need outside perspective and just trying to get it here is not enough. Talk to a pro -- in person -- to help you. W's behavior is not okay. You enabling W's behavior is not okay either.

You need to change your point of reference on this situation and you will need help to do that.

Acc

I agree that you need to validate your kids feelings, and not tell them they have to put up with W. Trying to put yourself in between as a buffer is just going to end badly. Especially the grown up ones. But do not undercut the relationship, either. That is important.

I also agree that maybe public school would be a decent choice for the littler ones. Esp. if your wife is looking at moving out.

I agree with what you are saying here and that is the way I was leaning. I told them that mainly to buy a little time until I could figure out how they should handle it.





Yes, she is.



They are M-F they have evening activities they do (Dance, Karate, etc.) Problem is, W takes them three days per week, I take them two. My work schedule doesn't have me home in time to go more.

D14 and S8 have been asking me to take them out to the movies and other places lately, so we have plans for Saturday night, just the three of us. I think they are feeling the pressure at home and want to get away, just as you said.




I am and have considered it. W would not go for it in any way, shape or form. In order to do it I would have to figure out a way to get it accomplished and get the W on board. I have to be at work before school starts and don't get home until well after school is out, so she could easily stop it if she is not in agreement.

Honestly, I think that is one of the things keeping her from moving out/filing for D. She would have to get a job and put the kids in school.




I ask that not because I am afraid of W getting further away from me, although I am. I ask because I don't want her getting further away from the kids. As I said, she has always been an awesome mother and D21 has always been very close to her. I don't want a situation like in my family. My older sibling still will not willingly talk to our father because of the way he treated/cheated on our mother. I don't want that to happen here.




I finished reading sandi2's threads "Help for LBH who has a WW." I never realized that what you are saying there is true until I read those threads. I have always put her, what she wanted and her feelings first. I rarely told her how I was feeling because I didn't want to hurt her feelings (not that I have never hurt her feelings. I have, inadvertently). I am definitely guilty of helping to create the monster I have on my hands now.




I see that. It is the way I grew up, so I have always accepted it as "normal" I guess. I am seeing that she is like my father (and hers) in many ways.

The good news is that I am standing up to her more. The two times I have needed to in the past week (since the blow up), I have stood my ground and got my point across. I wouldn't say that they were perfect replies, but she got the point that I wasn't going to take her crap. It is a work in progress though.


Thanks, Acc.

I'm not trying to tell them to put up with it, I want them to respond in the best possible way, but I can see that it sounds that way. D21 and S23 are the only ones who will stand up to her out of the kids.




This is true, but I guess I am in "protection mode" a bit with them. I still see the adult kid as children sometimes.



My goal is to protect their relationships.




As I said to Acc, I think that is one of two things stopping her at this point. I wouldn't be opposed to public school at this point though. They don't need the 24 hr stress of this.