I am new to the board and sympathize with you. I happen to be the (female) HD in my marriage. We have had virtually no sex life in 2 years. MB is not emotionally fulfilling for me - but I do it beause I know that I have a physical need. I actually subscribed to 2 adult channels a few months ago. Didn't tell my LD hubby, but he did find them. At times I watch these channels and simply yearn for my husband, because I love him. There may be many reasons he has lost interest, and i think a combination of several.... It can be a struggle. Good Luck.
Ok folks, I mentioned trying to "curb the habit" for 72 hours. If you read the Super Success Stories, you will see that I happily couldn't do it by no fault of my own .
So technically, the last 2 times I O'd were with my W. Yehaaa! Something is definitely in the air.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
I think I understand what you're saying especially the part where you said he doesn't try to involve you. If I understand, you're saying that you feel as though he's masturbating not because he desires you and only you but simply because he has a physical urge for sex, and that you're wondering if he's responding ONLY to a physical urge to "scratch an itch" when he wants to ML to you and that it doesn't make much difference to him whether it's your body or his hand doing the scratching.
Have you tried talking to your husband about this or asking him? I asked mine once, and he explained that sometimes even if we've ML every day for the past few days or so, he'll MB in the morning while getting ready for work simply because it's a physical thing then and doesn't take much time to satisfy. It's something I noticed also with other lovers I ML with before marrying my husband. Sometimes, for some men, MBing is just a physical thing that has nothing to do with ML, so even if you ML with him every day, he might still MB. If he prefers to MB rather than to ML, that could, of course, cause problems in the marriage (if you review some of the threads here, you'll notice that's a problem for some women whose husbands prefer MBing to porn rather than ML with their wives).
On the other hand, for some, if not most, men, if they haven't ML for days or weeks for whatever reason, they'll MB presumably because they really want or need the physical release. It is uncomfortable for them not to do so (again, this is based on what my husband and other men have told me). Also, if he's become aroused by you and doesn't ML, sometimes it's more comfortable for him and he can sleep better or carry on with whatever he was doing before if he relieves himself physically.
So, strictly IMHO, it's more likely than not that your husband may MB to relieve himself if he's feeling sexually frustrated or if he's in a place, such as his bathroom, when the urge comes upon him. But, it's probably unlikely that he sees ML as just scratching an itch.
BTW, have you read The Sex Starved Marriage? Michele explains that for most men, ML with their wives is definitely not "scratching an itch." Another good book is Willard Harley's His Needs, Her Needs, in which he lists 10 emotional needs that are usually identified by husbands and wives he's counseled, and shows that men and women generally (but he repeatedly cautions that this is just a generalization) don't even share each other's top 5 emotional needs. He also explains how and why sex with their wives is often men's top EMOTIONAL need (it's not just physical). Dr. Harley's website is www.marriagebuilders.com (just browse around until you find the section on the most important emotional needs). Michele's book, Harley's book, and some of the posters on this board made me realize that sex for my husband wasn't just scratching an itch but was probably his most important emotional need. Turning him down hurt him and made him feel rejected by me even though he never said so (although there were a few sniping comments from him at times).
If you're comfortable talking about sex with him, have you ever considered asking him to show you how he MBs or to let you watch? Or, if you're tired or sore or just not in the mood to ML, would you feel comfortable asking him to MB while you kiss him and touch and stroke other places on his body? I don't know about other men, but my husband likes this.
Finally, I used to try to MB my husband with my hands using the stroke that he used, which is a hard, straight back and forth motion; but my arm would feel as though it was going to fall off. A few years ago, I bought the book, How to Be a Great Lover, Girlfriend-to-Girlfriend Totally Explict Techniques, by Lou Paget (she's a sex educator); and we tried a lot of the techniques in it when my husband was able to come home for lunch once or twice a week. This is the absolutely best sex manual for women who want to be good lovers that I've ever found (she's also written a book for men called How to Give Her Absolute Pleasure). The book is very tastefully done, friendly, and very explicit with step-by-step directions and drawings (no photos) using the proper names of body parts. She covers everything from kissing to manual stimulation to oral stimulation to positions to lubricants (with names and descriptions of products with ratings), etc.
This isn't the type of book that will make a woman feel like a prostitute or porn queen. In fact, Paget states that her purpose in writing the book was to empower women, increase intimacy in their relationships, and allow women and their partners to enjoy themselves in new ways (pp 2-3 of How to Be a Great Lover).
You can find it at many bookstores, including amazon.com (lots of positive reviews at amazon.com). The chapter on hand techniques is wonderful, especially one technique called "Ode to Bryan" named after her gay male friend who taught it to her in public using a spoon to demonstrate (it's a two-handed technique that your husband can't do himself unless he's extremely double-jointed) .
Anyway, my husband and I had a lot of fun with Paget's book (sometimes I'd have him hold it and read the directions to me while I tried to follow, which for us made it more like play time that started with us talking and laughing but usually ended with him dropping the book barely able to breathe as I perfected the technique we were learning). And, unlike the stroke I learned from my husband that he uses, there are strokes in that book that won't tire you out or make your arm sore (think movements that use the wrist and hand like knitting rather than the forearm or whole arm like hammering a nail). But, even with these techniques that my husband loves, he often likes to finish with that hard "milking" stroke if we didn't go on to ML (I'm very responsive to touch, whether it's him touching me or me touching him, so the hand techniques I used on him were often foreplay for both of us). If we didn't go on to ML, I could usually finish him with the "milking" stroke since it usually only took a few strokes by then. Sometimes if he's become a little desensitized so that it would take more friction or strokes than I could do comfortably, I'll let him take over while I kiss him and do other things with my hands.
BTW, I would be considered the LD wife in our marriage. I love ML with my husband once we get started, but I'd often turn him down because I was busy, tired, or irritated at him for some reason. I'm unlikely to initiate with him based on my own sex drive (pure "horniness", which comes and goes several times throughout the month, generally lasts for about 30 minutes at a time before disappearing). But, my body's very responsive physically to him when he initiates if I'm relaxed and not distracted (that's why we knew we could ML at lunch even when those lunches were scheduled a week or so in advance). In other words, I'm one of the people Michele talks about in her book who really get into it once they get started (and I've recently learned that it makes my husband feel good to know that he's the one who can get my engine running and keep it running.)
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers
To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. C. S. Lewis
LOL! I know all about the "getting fidgety and restless to the point where his thoughts can't focus on much else." Sometimes I can tell just by that when he's taken care of himself. Let me explain my first post a little further.
This hasn't even been a problem for us for a long time. Yes, I rejected him, but not every time. It only took a few times of him MB to make me have those feelings of hurt and inadequacy. And from then on, when I rejected him, it was mostly because a) it was much easier knowing he'd be taken care of than putting up with the fidgetting and restlessness, b) I didn't like feeling as if he was 'just using me for sex' (I'll explain more about this next), and c) I guess I felt like I was punishing him. I justified it in my mind as such: if he was MB instead of putting time and effort into enticing me, and he seemed to be fine with that, then let him have at it. Most of the time he didn't give me the chance to reject him. I can't blame him for that; it is a learned behavior that I taught him.
As for the feeling as if he was 'just using me for sex'...at that point in time, we were no longer ML - we were just having sex. There was no foreplay, no kissing, no rubbing, no nibbling - nothing. So really, sex held no interest for me. Sure, I enjoyed it once it was happening, most of the time. But rather than go through all the motions, it was easier for me if he just didn't bother me with it. Which is SO hypocritical, I know, because when I found out he HADN'T involved me, I got really upset. And that's the vicious cycle I was trying to convey. Most of the blame for that lies with me, and I understand that now. I just wasn't feeling satisified myself, but rather than talk to him about it, I shut him out and basically forced him into MB.
However, e_g, I understand your needs, and know that you can't just become a monk while you wait for her. In your sit, I would suggest that you do talk to her about it. My H and I have only been together 3yrs, M1, so when we went thru this we were still in the 'learning stages' of our R. And we still are! She has to understand that while you are willing to wait for her and help her regain her SD (I'm wondering if she ever really had one in comparison to you...?), you cannot just put your needs to the side and ignore your own body.
mrsg - I know exactly what you mean about MB not being emotionally fulfilling. My H has never been able to understand why I don't MB. If I just wanted a 'sexual release', he would more than jump at the chance to help me out!
mich - you hit the nail on the head, girl! It isn't a problem for us any longer, thank goodness. I did finally muster up the courage (or maybe I just got so fed up with it... ) to talk to him about it, and we agreed that we BOTH needed to make some changes.
Thanks for the book suggestion; I showed my H and asked if he'd be interested. LOL, he said, 'it has a 100% penis seal of approval.' LOL, I love that man!!
I must admit - I am very jealous of the horniness you experience! I'd give anything to experience it even just that much. While HS (having sex, because I strongly feel that HS and ML and two totally diff things) feels good, there is no comparison to HS when you are totally craving it! And then, of course, there's ML. *Sigh*
Yes, we are reading SSM together. That's actually how I came to be here. It helped me realize that my SD didn't just disappear - it's still there, and I'm one of those that doesn't experience arousal first.
Lastly (whew, what a long post!!), I'd like to ask a question. This may deserve its own thread, but I'll ask now...
What is everyone's opinion on ML vs HS? Do you feel there is a difference? How important do you feel either is to a M?
Fuzzy, I'm so glad you reiterated your question at the end cause I was about to hit reply and ask you to expand on that (at first I typed "sexpand"...gosh what the HELL is the matter with me, lol!)
For me, there is a difference in HS and ML, for sure. They both feel the same physically to me, but the ML has a more satisfying emotional element to it. However, I would not classify one above the other--they are about equal for me. (btw, I am a HD female) Most of the time we HS, because of time constraints and the fact that with two little kids we are too tired for anything else. And quite frankly I do not crave ML, like a lot of women do. If I had to quantify it, I would guess about 1 time out of every 12 times we do it. So the vast majority of our sessions, we are having sex and that is fine with me.
There are, of course, those lovely times where only one of us wants to ML and the other one is lost in some lust-induced haze. Those nights are not the best, but what can ya do? Just hope that you are in sync the next time, is all I can see.
How important are the two to a marriage? Very! They are both useful in their own ways. Like I said, I don't think either one is "better" than the other or morally superior; I just think they are two ways to express the same thing--love, devotion, desire, lust, fidelity. I think that a marriage based on only ONE kind of intercourse is going to get damn boring after a while. So my vote is to incorporate both of them and have fun with it! Just because he is not going slow and gazing into my eyes does not mean that he does not love me at that moment--it means that my body drives him crazy at that moment. And vice versa..just because he's not pounding away does not mean that he isn't enjoying himself, it means that he is feeling more LOVE right now than anything else. The tides (for us) are always shifting and moving and going on to the next thing. We are never in a place where all we feel is love OR lust. We are human beings who experience the whole vast array of human emotions with each other. THAT is the essence of marriage to me. That I am free enough in this marriage to experience this with the person that I am bound to for the rest of my life--and those experiences do not have to be limited to a certain type of expression.
That is more than you asked for, but no one ever said I didn't like to hear myself talk.
hugs, Honey Regarding your other problems, what do you mean it was only sex? Are you saying that his technique was really really bad? (that's what it sounds like to me) If so, then that at least is a solvable problem! He learns to be a better lover, you want to participate more often, he doesn't MB as much. A win-win.
Quote: What is everyone's opinion on ML vs HS? Do you feel there is a difference? How important do you feel either is to a M?
FF - There is DEFINITELY a difference, and they are BOTH vitally important in a marriage. I agree 100% with HP on this. In my own case, W seems to feel that if it can't be ML, then there's no point in HS. With her, it's "all or nothing". No quickies, no half-way, nothing if there can't be a full-blown ML session. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, she has actually said it. That's, I think, one of the BIGGEST roadblocks, because it means there has to be all this overhead - there can't be any kind of sex at ALL if it can't be full-blown LM. That's why we can't have different sexual "moods", where one or the other would take care of the other's needs even if they aren't totally INTO it at the moment, and there can't be any REAL GIVING (Michele's term). I'm hoping we can work towards that, but when the overall frequency is less than 10/year, it's awfully difficult. So far this year, 3 times max (one of those is in dispute)...
Fuzzy, I think that both you and your husband will have lots of fun with the book; and when he experiences the techniques in there, he'll probably want to get the book she wrote for men, How to Give Her Absolute Pleasure. Love and intimacy combined with good skills are unbeatable in creating desire (as I wrote above, most of the time I feel little or no actual physical sexual desire when we first get started, but 99% of the time it kicks right in after a few minutes of kissing, hugging, and foreplay, even if that foreplay is me playing with him).
I've been married for over 20 years now, and I think the difference between ML (making love) and HS (having sex) is more emotional than anything else.
In my post above, I referred to ML after using some of the hand techniques, but it probably would have been more accurate to have used the word "intercourse". The foreplay itself, whether it ends in intercourse or not, is actually ML. I feel very connected to my husband emotionally and I've noticed that I feel very relaxed afterwards even if I'm strictly "doing" him (for example, when I have my period). Now, I'm finding that foot rubs (sometimes he's tired after work and will happily lie on the couch while I rub his feet, which I've learned is also an opportunity to practice the hand moves in Paget's book, for a couple of hours) probably count as ML to him.
The same goes for the rip each other's clothes off and go at it like a couple of animals type of sex. As long as it's mutual and I feel the emotional connection, that's ML, too. Again, it leaves me feeling very relaxed even if I don't climax (one of the most important things I got across to my husband was that sex or ML can feel very good to me without the big O). Sometimes I was getting so much pleasure out of watching and feeling his excitement that I didn't want to focus on having an O.
The times I felt that we were simply HS were times earlier in our marriage (but unfortunately for many years) when I felt distanced from him emotionally, when we did it because I thought that I should do it and that he was "scratching an itch". I would feel kind of empty emotionally after inside, and instead of feeling close to my husband, I felt even farther away from him emotionally. But, now after reading Michele's and Willard Harley's books, I'll never think that again.
So, I guess that for my husband and me, ML would encompass most loving physical affection whether it leads to or includes intercourse or not.
BTW, we just pulled out Paget's book a couple of weeks ago, and we're working through it again (this is one way we're using Michele's concept from Divorce Remedy and Divorce Busting to "start with a beginner's mind" since we don't want to fall into a rut, and something that maybe didn't make the top 10 list a few years ago might make it there now). Have fun (I'd have loved to have Paget's book when we first married)
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers
To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. C. S. Lewis
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