Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers Newby here, desperate for some advice (thread 6)

JR, I just want to say, I can very easily picture myself going through what you've gone through, and ... just typing this up makes feelings well up from deep within. What can I say. Just really hurts, all of it.

But, based on what you said, it does seem like the session did some good. I think it *is* good for your W to hear from another person what the $#@#S!$ she thinks she is doing to you, the marriage, the family, and the kids: "you're gonna break this thing up, you've got to own it."

The other thing I wanted to say is -- and of course by saying it to you I'm mainly saying it to myself -- your W is not going to make up her mind through some rational, reasonable progression of thoughts. She's got all kinds of feelings whirling inside herself. So you can't really talk to her to persuade her. You can just be the great guy she originally fell in love with -- and improved upon w/ all your DB/GAL -- and there might be some weird alchemy of her brain that might make her think, "what the hell am I doing?"

You deserve far better, JR. I hope your W steps up to that.

At one point yesterday she said "I've had to fake for years even wanting to hug him or show him any affection". It was incredibly revisionist -- there are just too many times where we were very passionate, and not that long ago. And she's not Meryl Streep. She couldn't fake it that well. But man is that painful to hear that sort of thing, and you just realize there is no way this would ever get pieced back together.

FG -- as always, I really appreciate your support. What a long, horrid road we're on. Hoping for better days for both of us.

Sounds like very selective memory. I'm sure there were times when she was terribly annoyed at you -- but that's called a normal marriage. Not fair nor real to paint the whole marriage that way. You don't ... shag someone you can't stand.

Whether or not it saves your marriage, I think it *is* good for your W to think through these irrational thoughts and memories w/ someone. Since she's decided to blow up your marriage, she ought to countenance the whole carnage she's about to create with a clear view. Is it decided that you're not going back to MC?

When she gave these warped view of your marriage, what did you say? What did the counselor say?

At one point I actually said she was revising history, and that I remember all kinds of times way, way more recently than she now says she'd already been long faking it, that she was objectively and positively not faking it. That sort of petered out and didn't go anywhere after that, though; she had no answer, and the MC didn't push on it. (MC was more down to brass tacks at that point: work on the marriage or don't, but be an adult about it, accept that, if you do keep going down this road, pain is going to be inflicted (and it's not our fault for being hurt) if you decide this is what you want to do OR get in here and get to work. But don't come here and try to make this into an exercise to make your H not harmed by being rejected, divorced, etc.

Re the carnage, I agree. And that's what she recoils against very viscerally. When she has to confront any sort of pain she's causing, she immediately goes into the mode of what a long-suffering person I am, she adds years to her unhappiness period (because who can begrudge someone for suffering so long and intensely), and she starts ticking off all of the bad things I did and am, and there you have it.

What's really, really going on though, I think, and its starting to become clear(er) to me, is that she had an identity crisis at some point in the last 4-5 years where she looked around and said "Is this all there is? Is this all that I am? Is this all that I'm going to be?" The answer, of course, is "Yes, this is all there is (because that's always the only answer there can be -- and it's enough, if you carry joy and gratitude inside you), and yes, this is all you are (because that's all the answer can ever be, and it's enough, if you believe it is enough)." Well, she needs to see herself as someone more, someone noteworthy and uber; rather than unpack that and come to grips with the insecurity that drives that sort of thinking, she started looking for scapegoats that hold her from this idealized vision of what life should be. Enter me, enter not so much the kids themselves, but the drudgery of caring for them, enter a second income type job (when she was once a shooting start professionally) and the kernel that this is all more than a little beneath her took hold. From there, I needed to be the person holding her back, who couldn't make her feel the way she needs to feel and all the rest. It explains why none of the improvements I've made ever mattered at all -- they didn't transform her identity (as opposed to transforming her R, which they could have done), and that's what she wants and needs a transformed, more noteworthy, more exciting identity.

I like your MC. Can you send her over.

Your 3rd paragraph -- I could just copy & paste it right into my thread. Yep, this is all there is, and (except for W divorcing me) I feel so full, so blessed and so satisfied by life; and until the bomb drop I felt like it could only get better as we did more with each other and with our kids.

Where the difference might be in my case vs. yours is that my W not being able to find stability and satisfaction within herself, her falling in love with the act of falling in love itself (rather than the person and the long-term relationship) ... all that is a life-long pattern for her. It's not something that happened just within our marriage. Which is not to say she's always been the same: she did hang in there (hang onto stability) for a long time, but her mid-life physiology and a chance meeting with someone that sparked an EA ... those things kind of put her back on her life-long emotional trajectory.

Anyhow, back to you ... I think you are right that DB/GAL does so little for your W because this is all about her, not you. You could be George Clooney and your W would say she had to fake wanting to hug you. Based on that, I think that detaching and giving her space is the best you can do for her, and -- forgive/forget my hope, but -- I do think there is a modest chance that once she really rolled around in all that freedom she fantasizes about ... and drank in all the sense of meaning and purpose and happiness that comes with that fantasy ... she might realize she's made a big mistake.

I keep thinking about this. I think this is a good message for a WAS to hear, especially that last clause. I think a lot of WAS/WW know what kind of pain they're going to cause, and some even realize subconsciously what a bad choice they are making -- so they find some irrational way to bury that part of reality. And it's good for a counselor to tell them, be an adult about it. Look at it with open eyes, and then make your decision.

And, maybe, eventually, there can also be the message that, look, you might think you're going to be so happy after you jettison what you think is the source of your unhappiness but ... what if all of that is inside you? What if you're right back to square one in a year, two years, three years?

How's it going to be decided whether you guys go back to your MC?

I think the ball's entirely in her court. I'm not going back unless it's with someone fully on board to try to work on the marriage, and the MC isn't interested in having us as clients unless there's two people in her office at least wanting to (re)build something together.

And I think that's where it will stay. She just doesn't see a future with me as giving her what she needs. She said it all when she said "The four of us? It's not enough for me". Like she's Paul Gauguin, set for Polynesian departure or something.

Your W suggested MC kind of the blue, right? So maybe she'll surprise you again.

I think I may have made a comment about how your W would not be truly happy, b/c she doesn't want to be responsible for her own happiness. She thought she'd be happy if she got M. Then it was having babies. Then she thought she'd be happy if you lived closer to her parents. Then it was law school, etc., etc. Happiness has to come from within the person. Your W is wanting someone or some thing to make her happy.

I agree about the MC. She's good!

FG -- I'd been asking to go for a long time, and she always resisted. Then, at the exact same time she told me she was moving out of MBR, she said she'd go if I found the MC. I never got too optimistic, even though she did seem to be fairly into it the first two times we went.

sandi2 -- you were and are spot on, I think. It's frustrating to be tied emotionally, and have kids with someone, who has that mindset. Not sure what anyone can do in those circumstances.