Believe it or not, I know how you feel. When people tell me that, I always wonder if they really do. As similar as one’s sit can be to another person, there are always differences, and if the situational differences aren’t enough, there are individual differences. KAW isn’t Andy, and Andy isn’t KAW.
I went through a period in which I thought it would be easiest to pack it in. There’s no shame in calling it quits. In fact, some would argue that the shame would lie in trying to have something that you never can/will have.
I hate the phrase “give up.” It sounds like you’ve failed. But perhaps it’s all a person can do if their SO gives up and doesn’t give you a chance to work on things.
I guess what I’m trying to say, KAW, is that there’s no right or wrong. All there is, is what you want, and what CAW wants.
Ya try to figure out what she wants so you can give it to her. Ya try to psychoanalyse her so you can figure out why nothing you say or do is good enough. Ya drive yourself crazy trying to give her what you think she wants whilst trying to get what you want.
And all you want is for her to love you.
But she won’t give you what you want.
So you wait.
You hope.
Eventually, you give up.
And after all of your fruitless effort, you don’t feel good about giving up.
I’ve been there, KAW. I came out of it – whether that’s a good thing or not, I don’t know. I’m either a “great guy,” or just plain stupid. That’s a judgement I’ll leave to others.
So, I have no advice for you, my friend. Just want you to know I empathize.
Wow. Andy, that was really well said. Today I am ready to pack it in myself so I am empathizing with you all.
No more lemonade making today and no more turning the cheek. I think it is time to dance.
KAW, I hope you are taking good care of yourself while churning the emotional and logical wheels. Whatever you decide is best for you, you have many supporters right here on the BB.
Sorry folks for the way I ended my last post. It was not how I intended to, but I feel so humbled in the wake of the responses and I thank you all for that. For the last couple of months I been leaving my personal reflections for the weekends when I'm scheduled to cover at work. Last Saturday I was compiling that last post when I thought it would be quiet for a period at the end of the day, work intervened and I know I'd wouldn't be able to get back to it.
So starting tonite, for the next four weeks, I will be working thru the night. On the plus side, I'm anticipating for less interuptions and hopefully a bit more quiet time to navigate the bb. Timing probably couldn't be better to allow some more self-reflection.
Last Saturday, as I explained on Wonder's thread, there are two basic strategies towards finding the 180's that are to be effective in breaking cycles of cheeseless tunnels. First ones to try are the 180's that are intended to be an attraction for them in order to draw them closer. This is what I call "Plan A" to break the tide that carries away the neglected WAS who feels abandoned, unloved, misunderstood, alone - to seek out and try all one can think of that falls under this catagory of 180's.
At some point if the cycle continues to persists, we may come to the realization that anything we do differently will not break the cycle, because whatever the root of the WAS unhappiness is - it is no longer is about us and if they are unwilling to face it - it can go on and on - and as long as it goes on - and in CAW's case (I don't believe her to be unique, but will only speak on behalf of only my sitch, and maybe someone else will notice similarities.), she will not put any faith that this M is any part of her happiness in the future. To listen to her, she had an unhappy childhood, her first M was a disaster (dated a father figure 18 years older than she when she was a senior in highschool - when she got pregnant, he proposed. 9 months after the first child they had a second. Within a year, she left him, for a kid who just graduated from highschool and still living with his folks [Me!].) The only times she stated as being happy in her life was when she was pregnant and the first four years we lived together (not married tho) and worked the same jobs and shifts, so we were together 24/7. Altho, even during those four years, what she stated was would make her even happier was to have my baby. I was firm that we should wait until we were married. Our oldest was conceived on our wedding nite. After that tho it did take long to notice changes in our R and in CAW. A spiral that landed CAW an institution for suicidal depression eight years ago. Six years ago, CAW had pulled out of her depression and we had a really good chance to turn our M around, but I had gottin' in a funk (depression altho I wouldn't admit it) which lasted about four years). CAW got tired of waiting. That's what it took to give me a swift kick in the A$$ and forced me to face myself in the mirror.
Huh! I really don't know why I felt I had to revisit this in that kind of detail - other than to fortify the conclusion I came to last Wednesday - I think we're stuck in a cycle that's not going to change, because CAW has come to think any periods of good times are fleeting and if she stays with what she has, she is missing out on keeping with that fleeting happiness. I am becoming convinced that she will not accept what she has now is enough until she has lost it.
"Plan B" - Take away what they have in hopes that they will miss it. One needs to get to the point where they are totally detached - drop the rope - walk away - move on and if need - never look back. Wednesday, I believe I have reach the point where I can start moving in this direction.
Since last Wednesday, I have come and lurked on the bb, and you folks without knowing have help me get some balance again tho. As I had asked Wonder, I started asking myself, "Have I done everything that might make Plan A work?" Knowing now that I can accept moving foward with Plan B if the answer is "Yes". With a renewed sense of clarity, I know there were some things I was afraid to try in case they could lead to forcing my hand to move forward with Plan B. Now I think I'm ready to try those options. I am also going to take advantage of working nights to read the book my Sis gave me for Xmas - "Love Must Be Tough" in hopes to give me some more options. (Not to sound like I'll be ignoring my job, but by working nites, I'll be home alone while CAW is at work and D10 at school, so I'll should have a lot more free time to myself.) With those options, I going to take the next four weeks to make whatever arrangements I need to move forward with Plan B in case I'm going to need it, especially since CAW seems to have a Plan B too.
From Betsey:
Quote: I'm just wondering, though, why it appears that CAW always has a bag packed at the door?
In my last two threads, I have gone into detail the insights I have gain from CAW's journal. (before the 2x4's come out about reading her journal, please read thru those posts to put it all in context.) ... but to sum up in 15 words or less ... CAW believes by staying in M, she could be missing out on something grander.
Quote: Anyway, it seems like CAW has some abandonment issues of her own ... I'm curious to know why you think she might feel that way with you?
Bets, from the time CAW was pregnant with D10, I've given her plenty of reasons. While I never would ever consider leaving our M, I escaped in many other ways. There is an eight year gap between our D's. We waited a couple of years before trying for a second child. After three years, we gave up hope, so D10 was a total suprise. By that time, my outlook on having a second child had change dramatically. As a result, I was lacking in the fathering aspect, not going to open houses, brownie meetings, school concerts, etc... As an escape, I delved into hobbies that led to solitude. It didn't take long before CAW resented how I chose to spend my time and felt like a widow many times over ... a computer widow, a darkroom widow, a model railroader widow, etc... then came my depression, became a couch potato that gained fifty pounds and didn't do anything around the house because things would only break again anyways. Physical abandonment isn't the only form, mental and emotional abandonment is just as hurtful ... and something that has been going thru my mind quite a bit lately is I wonder if CAW can really ever forgive me for that. I was as far as I could be from the guy that gets all these praises KAW been getting around this bb now and why I still feel deserving of them.
Kitti, Patti, PnB: Journalling ... well I'm figuring there's gonna be lotsa of it in the next few weeks.
Bridget: You always make me smile. I never liked lemonade! ... don't want to ever have to wear a sourpuss again, so you're right ... I got to leave it behind and I'd love to come dance to your strumming on your cherry red guitar. Have you know, you have been a big part of me getting to the point where I can now consider Plan "B". Thanks for the hugs, too.
Merrick: Be expecting an email soon.
Andy:
Quote: KAW isn’t Andy, and Andy isn’t KAW.
I've said before and I'll say it again. I could swear we were twins ... well, at least as Schwarzenegger was to DeVito. Andy, I just don't want to be trapped in this cycle which is appearing to be endless. Don't get me wrong, I will DB to the end as I see DBing as progressive, no matter what the outcome and I accept the fact that it is a slooooow process and am devoted to taking as long as it takes ... so long as I'm not standing still ... or worse yet chasing my tail.
Well this is more like it ... this is more like what Saturday's post was suppose to look like. LOL I'll try to find a middle ground soon ... well at least with post length if nothing else ...
Quote: So starting tonite, for the next four weeks, I will be working thru the night. On the plus side, I'm anticipating for less interuptions and hopefully a bit more quiet time to navigate the bb.
Yeah, you'll be online during my time zone
Quote: Huh! I really don't know why I felt I had to revisit this in that kind of detail - other than to fortify the conclusion I came to last Wednesday - I think we're stuck in a cycle that's not going to change, because CAW has come to think any periods of good times are fleeting and if she stays with what she has, she is missing out on keeping with that fleeting happiness. I am becoming convinced that she will not accept what she has now is enough until she has lost it.
For me, validation has been one of the things i seek and get from this BB. Yes, going through history does help re-assess if your conclusion is the right one. KAW, it must have taken a lot of courage to conclude that CAW may need to lose what she has before she realises what she had. Has she seen the KAW we on this BB know and love?
Quote: CAW believes by staying in M, she could be missing out on something grander
Alas, the one thing we cannot do for our loved ones, no matter how much we care, is grow up for them. Sigh.
My second day working nights, so I come home to an empty house and on CAW's nitestand lays this letter.
Quote: Ken,
There are so many things going on in my head right now. But I am pretty sure that you know that already.
Saying things out loud are very hard to do. That is why I chose to write my feelings down. First, you must realize that I am very unhappy. Why? Sometimes the reasons aren't quite clear to me. I know that things can't stay the way they are. Something has to change. Don't you agree?
Every day I can see how much further we are drifting apart. We have both changed, and now I feel that we just aren't meant to be together anymore. Don't get me wrong. This is very hard for me to admit. I know that I have changed the most. The more I look at me, the more I realize that it is time to move on.
You once asked me if I still loved you. I do love you. I care what happens to you. I don't want to hurt you. However, I am no longer in love with you. Yes, we have had our ups and downs. But I feel that I can no longer ride this rollercoaster. The changes from up to down are me sick. I mean mentally, of course.
Unfortunately, I can not tell you when my feelings changed. Do I think that the last 22 years have been a waste of time? NO WAY!! You have taught me so much. You showed me that love can be had. You have been my friend for half of my life. Is this hard? You bet you're ass.
I just feel that we have tried long enough. All I see now is a brick wall that I keep running into. It's time to go around that wall. I'm not sure of all the details, but I do know that a separation should be our next stop. Will it be tough, yes. Scary? Yes. An adventure? No doubt. Can we do it? Yes, I believe that we can. I feel that we must, before we drift so far apart that we can't even be friends anymore. I know that we need to talk. And I know there will be a lot of crying. Please, let's not make this a screaming match or a blame game. This is something I feel that I need to do at this point in my life. Please, help me reach my goal. Please understand that you will never be out of my life. We share too much.
Let's talk.
Two years and three months later, I right back to square one. I could really use some guidance. I'm fine. Really. Not even all that upset. As she said the writing has been on the wall. I just don't know what approach I should take from here? I wasn't ready yet for Plan B!!! and I just don't know how much fight I have left in me. I'm tired. I haven't slept in nearly 24 hours. I'm going to bed. I need to get some sleep but I will try to wake up before she comes home in time to see if I can some wisdom on how to handle this.
but you knew it was headed that way, so you have an advantage that most of us didn't - this bump has been a long time coming - and crud if she didn't pull the plan first - scuse me but that bites
but let's deal with the facts. your ok - you sound ok - you were ready for this - you knew it was coming - now all your thoughts about plan b need to be put into effect immediately - you been thinking about this for awhile - stay calm - give her what she wants with no strings attached. after all, all she is asking for is a seperation, and this COULD be just the thing that is needed for her to clear her head
can she make it on her own? these are things she needs to figure out. let me tell you as a walk away once that making it on my own was a HUGE thing for me - and that was only after 11 years of marriage -
kaw - remain calm - obviously she thinks that it will become a blame game or a shouting match, do not let either one happen. you are the one with the skills so you will be the one that leads this next chapter - it can be ugly - or it can be freeing
your choice
i dont have lots of advice, except to say you are at the right place
That had to be one hard letter to read! (and to write)
A couple of questions. In previous posts, you mentioned CAW was depressed. Is she on meds? Does she need to see the doctor again? Do either of you see a counselor?
Let's be honest here. You can't stop her from moving out. But you don't have to do the moving. You don't have to make this easy on her. Remember, this is about what she wants. It may be a dose of reality to let her figure out how to go about a separation.
For right this minute (day), take time for you. Get some sleep. Tell CAW you need a day or two to think before you have any discussion about the letter or the separating.
KAW, you have good insight. What would you tell somebody else if they were experiencing the same situation?
There's a reason you were thinking of Plan B. Of course you don't want to use it. None of us do! Plan B exists b/c we know we can't control our S. We can make changes in ourselves, but we can't bend S.
You love her. CAW says she loves you. Believe her. She does love you. Right now, she is very unhappy. She just needs to figure out that it isn't you that is making her unhappy. It is something inside her that she needs to see and change. It isn't going to matter where she is, that unhappy feeling will be moving right along with her. It may take her moving out to see that the unhappiness isn't you or the marriage. Please keep us updated on what is going on.
When you can't make a decision because you are torn between your heart and your head, listen to the half with the brain.
First off, I'm really sorry about all this. You say you're back to square one -- I respectfully disagree -- you've got a big old bag of DB'ing knowledge PLUS a host of friends standing by with support and advice (when/if you want it) and warm thoughts. None of that is to minimize what's going on for you -- a la the "bomb dropping redux" -- but it is a reminder that we're in your corner.
So...next steps?
Well...seems like the first one is to validate w's letter...thru minimal talk (IMHO) but instead a warm open squeeze...a "I got your letter. Thank you for being so open with your thoughts", thru "yes, I can understand your feelings", etc.
the best DB'ing you can muster!
And, I suppose if she brings it up again, it may include agreement or validation as to her desire for a separation, right? Not outright -- yah, let's go for it (unless that's how you feel?) but more -- yes, I can see how you feel that is the next step...then, silence.
And not at all in the background...but in the forefront...thoughts of what YOU want, KAW. What is that, friend?
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
I was as far as I could be from the guy that gets all these praises KAW been getting around this bb now and why I still feel deserving of them. 
I never liked lemonade! ... don't want to ever have to wear a sourpuss again, so you're right ... I got to leave it behind and I'd love to come dance to your strumming on your cherry red guitar. Have you know, you have been a big part of me getting to the point where I can now consider Plan "B". Thanks for the hugs, too.
Andy, I just don't want to be trapped in this cycle which is appearing to be endless. Don't get me wrong, I will DB to the end as I see DBing as progressive, no matter what the outcome and I accept the fact that it is a slooooow process and am devoted to taking as long as it takes ... so long as I'm not standing still ... or worse yet chasing my tail.
