Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers Chapter 3. Let the detachment begin

SH:

Thanks for your response. This is a list I created - from what I've gleaned from her. Yes, I agree the fear is hers and not mine to deal with. I love the point you make - there is a difference between fear and danger.

We shall see what happens. She has cancelled the MC session as she has to travel with work. I asked for it to be rescheduled not cancelled. I will leave it for now and see what happens with the Dr and if she pursues further sessions or is she gonna drop it.

I'm slowly getting to the point where I'm OK with me. I like the changes I'm making and some good things are happening.

Sandi2 - I'd really like to get your input

I could not have said it any better than SH. Perhaps I am too suspicious. It just seems that it is a little too convenient. She didn't appear to have any fear when she wanted to move back under her own terms. The WW feels that she must give some kind of justifiable excuse for leaving a good man. So, she comes up with something like she is afraid of him, although, nobody else has seen any behavior from her H that would cause her to be afraid of him. It's one of those things that a WW can do that makes no sense. IMHO, this comes from her mindset of wanting to make her H the bad guy, while winning approval from others for herself.

Based on what you have told us, I think you should file this under believe nothing she says.

Sandi2 - I agree - but it is my situation

So latest development

This email shows up in my inbox late one night

Hi Bigybiz,
I will be away a couple days next week. Work requires me to go to Windsor from Monday afternoon thru Wednesday night. I won't be able to spend 3 hours on Tuesday with S10 or pick him up.
Let me know if this is a problem.
Thank you

I reply immed - with

Yes, I'm at a client event

The next morning I send a sms - need to speak about your email face to face. I'm only free this am. It will take 15min.

She shows up at the house at 7am

I ask her to read the email to me - she does.

I say what's wrong with it? She shrugs

I saw - well there is no "please" or I'm sorry it's last minute and the passive aggressive tone about only being able to spend 3 hours with S10 is unacceptable.

Well she looks at it and says your right.

I tell her if you want me to do something for you it needs to be nice.

We hash out the what and whens about what can happen with S10.

The meeting did take a little longer as we slipped into other nonsense.

I did agree to help with S10 as the event is very optional.

How did I do?

bigy,

Your recent post confuses me.
I perceive it almost as if you interacted with her like you would a child that you are trying to teach respect and email etiquette.

I'm not sure I follow what you were trying to accomplish or gain here.

IMHO tone in emails and text come mostly from the reader of the message.
I read the email you wrote from her as a, to the point , matter of fact, straight to business message. Nothing more nor less really.

I would find it condescending if someone were to speak to me about an email I sent in that manner.

If you had an issue about the last minute change of plans for your s, I would encourage you stick to that point.
It sounds like you would be able to help with your s10 , so it seems to me that there was not really a point to the conversation and pointing out what you felt was wrong with her email.
I would say, pick your battles so to speak.
Maybe I am missing something here, but that is my take on this.

Thank you sandi2 for your vote of confidence in my feedback. It is a bit of an ego boost to be commended by a vet and someone who has paid it forward so much in this community.

bigy as I read sandi2's thoughts it made me also think of how my wife made many comments as she stormed off over the last 6 months how I only did things when she was angry and I was afraid of her anger. People use fear in many ways to control others.

Many in this community see your attachment to her reactions and behaviors. Maybe she see's it as well and throwing things out like she is fearful of you may be a way to control you, as she knows you will adjust behaviors favorable for her.

I know you through your story here, and I don't see you behaving in a way that causes fear in others, but I do perceive that if you thought you were causing fear in her, that you would adjust those behaviors any way you could and as fast as you could. Even so much so that she could tell you specifically what she would want and you might do it.
Maybe it's manipulative, maybe it's a way to justify that you are the bad guy as sandi indicates.
So now that I have gone in a circle, I will just agree with sandi and say chalk it up to believe nothing she says.

SH:

For me it was about the lack of respect she was showing me. I thought that was one of the key lessons for the WW/WAW. The email she sent was not respectful and I would not accept it from her or anyone.

That was my goal. Also, the issue for me was I did not want S10 farmed out so I was willing to adjust my plans for him and not her. I do wonder if by doing that I gave her what she wanted and therefore back at square one?

bigy, my friend, my DB brother.

I read your response early this morning and decided not to respond, as I had hopes others might chime in.
I read it again this evening and wanted to share my thoughts , but decided to let it lie.

But, alas, it keeps popping into my head and I just have to call you out on this one.
You know that I love ya like a brother since we met here in this community and I am always amazed at how you push on, and go after what you want and seek out advice and feedback like no other. Your faith and efforts seem un surpassed in so many ways that it has inspired me often.

Let me preface my perspective with I work in a business where much communication takes place with business partners and customers via email. I have seen more situations get blown out of proportion than ever needs to be. And more often than not it is blown out of proportion by the person receiving the email and their interpretation of the tone. Not the actual information in the message.
So, I have had to coach and train employees in the art of email etiquette, calm down customers and explain the information and point lost in translation and make calls to leaders in the business to clarfy what was being said in email communications.

So with that to clarify some of my street cred on this feedback let me give you some advice both as it relates to the email and some DBing as that I hope goes without saying I have a little experience with.



There is nothing in this email that is passive aggressive.
While a "please" or " I am sorry" might be a pleasant thing, they don't make nor break the tone nor message being conveyed.
It is a very business like email, to the point, and any negative tone that would come out of it, would be simply on the reader of the email.

Here is three things used in the trainings and coaching staff for my employees.

If you think there is a "Tone", then stop and jot down 3 types of tones you can think of. Let's say a happy tone, a sarcastic tone, and mono tone.
Read the email out loud with each tone.
Guess what, you just changed the same message into 3 different messages. And truth is, you are only mind reading or guessing what the sender was conveying.

Second thing. Read the email at different times of the day. You will tend to perceive the email differently each time more based on your mood. There is psychological studies done for this.

The last thing, is have several other people read the email and ask what they perceive. For you have several people that do not know your wife read it. You may be surprised what they tell you.

So my long winded point here, is I find it hard to see how this can be viewed as a demonstration of lack of respect in the email. I am not saying that she may have a passive aggressive attitude towards you, but " coaching" her on the email, appears a little aggressive on your part and as I would find it disrespectful if you did that to me.

Now her doing this last minute. That may be a form of showing you a lack of respect, or.....it maybe a legitimate issue that popped up for her at work.
What boundaries do you have established for things like that?

bigy, you are the energizer bunny of Db efforts, PMA, faith that things will workout and many other great things while going through a most difficult situation. But I just have to tell, you need to slow down a bit, take some time to truly absorb and meditate on the information you are obtaining for DBing, and interactions with your W.

Maybe to make my point here, sometimes watching you it is like watching you sit in front of a tutorial video for learning how to shoot a gun. You watch it for a few minutes and then you run outside, pick it up like you are an old pro and then......you shoot yourself in the foot.
That happened because you watched the video for a pump shotgun, but you picked up a pistol that was already locked and loaded and you squeezed the trigger, not realizing that pumping it to shoot was not needed. You applied a principle for the shotgun to a pistol. It does not work out well when you do so.

Okay, maybe that analogy got away from me, but my point is, slow down.
Detach. You are a very emotional person and I see this cloud your judgement frequently, and your understanding of some principles and feedback.

I am not trying to be harsh, but I am hoping you don't lose the war because you are so focused on the small insignificant battles.
IMHO, the way the situation for this should be handled is KISS.
Keep It Simple Stupid.

She sends you the email about the last minute change.
If a boundary has been set for this type of thing (last minute changes for kid stuff) then you stick to it.
If no expectations or boundaries are set, then you decide whether you can help out or not. Stick to discussing what options you can provide. Then after have a conversation about those boundaries. You do it respectfully and you validate her opinions on the matter. Then next time it is a no brainier what you will do.

Don't mix up kid stuff with W stuff whenever possible.
Please take some time to marinade on my feedback.
I am no expert and I only have what information you share and it is through my lenses of course, but please know I share this with your best interest in my heart.
You are still an inspiration that I look to as I continue on my own journey. I pray and hope that you achieve the goals you have for yourself and your family.

This is my 2c.........well maybe more like 92c.

SH:

Thanks for your reply. You are right. I'm the energizer bunny. I've taken on DB/DR and most other things in my life with an energy that is unprecedented. So will I take things to the limit and beyond yes.

I spent most of my career in the large corporate sector and have worked with all kinds of people on how to better communicate with the people in the executive suites, subordinates and the people sitting next to you.

Not that I want to argue with you - in fact just the opposite. I want clarification.

Sandi2 - I try and follow her advice to the letter (if I can). The idea that my W does not respect me and will only rethink her choices once she does, seems to make sense to me.

My W is a superb writer. She has never sent/published anything without it being well crafted and considered the audience. She knows the golden rule - saying please and thank you means lots to the reader - when you want something from them. She sent that note with a chip on her shoulder. She did not want to say - I have a good opportunity would you help me out...

I can't remember what I posted on this - but the time W spends with our S10, S15 she often feels is not enough (unless she has something better to do). When we hammered out the arrangements with the Dr. during family therapy she left not happy. It is a consent point of contention. So the "I won't be able to spend 3 hours.." is a passive aggressive statement. As she feels that I'm keeping her from them.

Again, the details are not important. So I helped because it's good for me and my son. Was I a doormat - probably.

Did I tell her that if you want to work with me (as she says she does) you need to be nice and respect the person you are working with.

So SH, Sandi2 and others - the issue for me is the email she sent she would not send to the cable guy. So how did I do? I've read many times that we would not accept disrespect from a spoiled child - so why from a WW/WAW.

bigy, you know that I give this feedback to you with all the respect of a fellow DB brother and one that looks up to many of the things you have accomplished.
I hope that my feedback can benefit you.

Take the batteries out once in a while and slow down. Step back, take a breath and give your WAW, yourself and the whole situation a breather once in a while.
Pick your battles wisely.
You have a war to win.
Being the energizer bunny is good as you will keep persisting and that is needed in your sitch. But be cautious as the energizer bunny can be annoying if the lil drum it is beating does not stop once in a while.

Keep on keeping on my friend.
You have many good things a head of you.
Be sure you slow down and recognize them on occasion.

Thanks - lots to digest.

I'll have to scour the site again looking for the difference between a WW and WAW and how to deal with them. Does anyone know where I could find that? I typically think W could be classified as both. Due to her EA and the fact that her new life/community etc to me is similar to an affair. She get's a high from it and thinks it is the greatest thing ever and she has found herself because of it, etc, etc. But, I would agree she got there as a WAW.

I'll have to double back and relearn how to deal with the WAW and/or WW.