Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers Letting go, finally

Thanks, Zeus! It's ridiculous how hard self-validation is for me, so as I'm working on it, I certainly won't mind accepting any external validation I can get.

Over the past 2 days as I reflect on this, it is all clicking and making more and more sense. I just visited with friends for dinner tonight. They are married and are the type of couple who try their best to work through their issues consciously together. They have been a good source of support. As I was telling them about these latest realizations about myself in regard to self-validation, they both lit up and admitted they had the exact same dynamic. They ended up really appreciating what I told them and thought it could help them too. So... I'm even getting validation that it's normal to have issues with self-validation!

So after that MC session today, despite feeling glad that she has showing interest in going back to NC again, I have some obvious concerns. How on earth can I possibly trust that she's really doing it? I have decided no more snooping. I don't want to pressure her to give up her passwords because anything at all that I ask for seems highly likely to come across as controlling / pressure. The MC hinted to her during the session that if she wanted to, my W could show me her phone to help reassure me.

My gut tells me that I should just sit tight, not have any expectations. Remain cautious, don't pursue. Just wait and see what she does. I imagine that at some point, she may want to be closer. If and only if she pursues me seeking closeness, I could use that opportunity to share that I'm feeling hesitant, scared of trusting that she's being truthful. I'm not sure exactly what I would say or how I would say it... I want to make sure that I don't come across as controlling anymore.

My wife has said before and said again today in the MC session that the trust issue seems like a deal breaker to her. She doesn't know if she can trust herself let alone get me to trust her again. She also doesn't know how she can trust me that I'm not snooping anymore. I get the sense that this is a matter to be dealt with very delicately, but I'm not sure how. It seems like of like horse whispering.

Any tips on how to be a good WW whisperer?

I think you hit it. Sit back and observe.

Be a great person. Work on yourself. Show the changes are permanent

Let her take her journey also. If she looks like or asks for some help or involvement then go slow.

Why rush this part?

This morning in the car, my W was very talkative. Small talk, gossip about other friends, etc. I felt irritated by the fact that she wants to interact as though everything is fine when the way that I feel inside is everything but fine. I didn't express my irritation but instead tried my best to just sit with it and try to own my feelings. After giving her awhile to get out everything she wanted to chat about, I asked her how it was going after the MC session yesterday, how she was doing with regard to her decision to go NC with the OM. She said that she was just thinking about it, talking to friends, etc. She said that her contact with the OM has been fairly minimal anyways. She downplayed it as though it wasn't a big deal or a commitment to be taken all that seriously. She reiterated that she wants the focus of her decision to go NC to be more about her own need for integrity than about my need to know that she is committed to the M. Of course, this comes across to me as though she is rejecting the validity of how I'm feeling and what I might need to feel safe and able to trust. Despite feeling angry about this, I let the conversation go and didn't apply any additional pressure beyond the curiosity that I expressed. I decided to just reflect on this more and see what I could learn from these observations.

After dropping her off, I thought about it more. I tried to validate myself, calm myself down, and be objective. I could clearly sense her reactivity around feeling controlled. I could see the absurdity of the misunderstanding - I'm not trying to control her, I'm just trying to communicate legitimate needs. I am oversensitive to anything that suggests my needs aren't valid, and she is oversensitive to anything that suggests that her freedom to say no isn't valid. When her issue is triggered, I appear to her like a controlling tyrant who is out to get her, which causes her to become over-protective of her freedom and independence. In this state, she can't see that I'm really just hurting and that I have legitimate needs that aren't being met, which I'm trying to communicate. The more that she is triggered in this way, the more it invalidates my experience of myself, which is that I'm a vulnerable person who just wants to be understood. This triggers my issue of feeling abandoned, which causes feelings of frustration for not being understood. In trying to communicate this frustration, I come across as controlling. Voila, the negative feedback loop is complete!

Understanding this is one thing, but seeing how I can change my actions to produce a better result is another matter. I can self-validate that my needs are legitimate, but if I try to communicate those needs to her, then it seems to guarantee that they won't be met. This puts me in a bind where no matter what I do, my needs won't be met. If I say what I need then I'll be perceived as controlling which will push her away. If I say nothing then she'll never know what I need.

For a long time, I have felt that the answer must have something to do with HOW I am communicating my needs. I have tried every way I can think of, but nothing has seemed to work. I have even tried not communicating my needs at all, effectively invalidating myself while minimizing my needs, trying to settle for less. This is what I did throughout our entire M because it was the only way that I could stay in the M. The problem is that this just leads to me feeling unhappy and unfulfilled in the R. This causes resentfulness, so I know that unless we work through this, it will never feel settled. I keep coming back to the thought that there must be something I'm missing. Perhaps I just need to validate her and be very, very patient as she works through her issue? I am trying to visualize what it would be like to walk a fine line where I can accept my need for connection while also accepting her need for freedom. Only when she gives out of her own freedom will she be able to meet my R needs without feeling controlled. How to expect nothing at all but without invalidating myself?

JGuy, I sympathize with your concern for how to deal with a situation where you want emotional connection with your wife but she doesn't seem to ever provide what it is that you need.

I unfortunately don't have any answers for you, but I'm learning that in many ways I handled everything wrong with regards to this issue during my entire life.

Apparently I've been a complete codependent and only ever sought emotion from someone for emotion in return. And, apparently this is not the correct and/or healthy way to go about a relationship.

You love. Its as simple as that. And you get love in return if you're lucky and/or chosen to give your love to someone who loves you back. Even if my WW ever decides she wants to work on reconciliation, I know that there will be a big issue of working back into our relationship to where I get the love and emotional connection I know that I want and need without having to sacrifice my own self to get it.

Just know that you are worth being loved, and learn what you can about yourself to develop as many healthy behaviors as you can going forward.

That's all I got. I'm sure someone will come along behind me and explain how completely wrong I am, but that's my very simplistic understanding of where things are for me in my sitch.

Good luck bro.

Thanks, bfice3. This is pretty simple advice but I think you're absolutely right. While there's something harsh about the reality of how alone I must be, it also makes sense that I cannot fully come of age and become a man without first working my way through this awkward stage of learning how to let go and be OK with aloneness.

The past week has been a whirlwind. Very strange things have been unfolding for me. Some of you will think I'm crazy, which is fine by me. (self validation!)

I had a dream several weeks ago where a woman was speaking to me on behalf of my W, trying to help us by explaining some things about my W to me that my W couldn't explain herself. I wasn't sure who it was in the dream, not anyone I recognized. This week I met her. Her daughter is in my son's class at school, and my W already knows her but I hadn't met her until now. She contacted me 6 days ago to tell me that she received a message for me. Yeah, really. We met for lunch and she proceeded to tell me about how everything that is happening in my life right now is happening for a reason. She said that she had a vision where she saw how things in my life were changing to make room for something big, something about me finding myself and bringing unique gifts to this world. This woman is a clairvoyant, obviously. During our meeting, she told me that I am like her. That there are others like me, more than I knew.

Needless to say, this sorta blew my mind. Indeed, I have had a latent clairvoyant ability throughout my life, but I could never really control it. If anyone is interested, I could share an interesting story about that. It may convince you that I'm not as crazy as I sound.

Anyhow, the days that followed my meeting this woman had a very different quality to them. I had several experiences over the weekend where I was able to see things about myself more deeply than ever before. Some of them were very humbling and some of them very beautiful, beyond explanation. I saw a possibility of sharing myself in a totally different way within relationships which was infinitely more satisfying than anything I had experienced before. At one point, I started feeling very attracted to this woman. I talked myself out of what I think may have just been a projection. I don't know for sure, but whatever it was, it was very intense what I was feeling. Perhaps this woman was still helping me, showing me something in myself that I had to give, so that I could give it to my W to save my M.

I reflected on this a lot. I started to feel more alive these past couple of days. Around my W I feel a strange confidence that wasn't there before. I am continuing to have moments throughout the day where I see things about myself. I feel like I'm more in touch with grace, and the emotional pain where I have been suffering for awhile seems farther away.

Tonight, my W came to talk to me. She said she's been having a hard week. She is lost in feelings of remorse and cannot imagine ever forgiving herself for how she has hurt me. She cried. I told her that she shouldn't be so hard on herself. All that matters is how she chooses to live her life moving forward. Besides, I suspect something much bigger is happening as a result of all this which is actually good for me and for us. I told her about what had happened with the message from this woman, about the feelings of attraction, and my decision to see it as guidance for me, rather than getting drawn in. My W seemed relieved. We connected in a strange way, able to empathize with each other for what it's like to feel an attraction to someone else. My W proceeded to open up more. Throughout the whole conversation, I focused on that feeling of intense attraction as something inside of me, and I gave it to my W.

Toward the end of the conversation, she said "There's something really different about you. I have been noticing it all week. You are being so kind to me, talking less and listening more. I didn't even know I needed this." I asked her if she found it attractive. She said "yes".

So, there you go. My method appears to be working in strange and unintended ways. I have no idea where my sitch is going next, but it sure is getting to be more interesting!

So, if Im understanding you correctly, by detaching yourself from W, by starting to get a life for yourself, by focusing on you, by projecting more self-confidence, etc.....and.......

your W is finding you attractive?

From my first post to you:


Sounds like youre on the right track.

Azzork, I'm hearing "I told you so". I'm sorry if my previous attempts to seek validation came across as rejecting your advice. I did hear the advice from you and others here and and I have followed the parts of it that felt right to me. The only parts that didn't feel right to me were the thing about wearing cologne (yuck) and hiding my tears from my (not gonna happen). Social norms about what is and isn't attractive can vary with subculture!

Indeed, I have been detaching, GALing, and focusing on me. It works! This is a pretty broad set of guidelines and can definitely be adapted to fit a person's individuality.

Update time. So much has been happening! I will have to try and summarize.

I have been using meditation and other tools like my hot tub, IC, and conversing with different friends to continue down the rabbit hole of what it is inside of me that makes me so uncertain about myself that I am in such need of validation. This journey has shifted from being a very mental effort to being more visceral, emotional, and spontaneous. I have been following the advice of staying in touch with my feelings through each moment, not abandoning myself. I am having more frequent moments of grace, subtle feelings guiding me, and sometimes very clear guidance about what I should do or not do. When I follow this guidance, it results in taking actions that align with the advice I have been getting here. Focusing on myself. GALing. Detachment. My experience has been that these things seem to come naturally when they are happening as a result of following this deeper guidance within myself, rather than trying to fake it until I make it. Authenticity is important to me and I'm glad that this seems to be working out such that I don't have to fake anything.

My W has continued to grow closer to me in the past couple of weeks. She even initiated a couple of kisses. She has said that she is experiencing fleeting moments of feeling attracted to me. I have maintained a somewhat distant stance to match the somewhat distant stance that I still sense from her.

If you recall in my previous post, I had some strange things lead me into a new friendship with a woman who is a friend of my W. This friendship has continued to grow. I have fended off what could easily turn into a serious crush on her if I was to allow it to. I have always been pretty good at containing such things and not crossing the line. I have been 100% honest about all of this with my W. I have told her about my feelings for this OW, and how I am containing them. My W feels a bit of jealousy, but also a lot of relief as it provides an opportunity for us to be more on the same page with regard to how it's possible to feel attraction to other people. The difference is that I am being 100% transparent and honest and putting my W first in terms of including her in everything. I have no idea what role this OW may have in my life or what kind of friendship might develop. It has a very spiritual dimension to it. I am a bit scared that I could end up falling in love with her, and becoming wayward myself isn't what I need right now at all. It is testing me... As I have mentioned before, I have a lot of ambivalence about my W and a long list of issues that make me question whether we are right for each other. My W has herself pointed out how this OW seems like she would be a much better match for me on some ways. In a strange way, it has been healing for us to be able to talk openly about it. For now, I am making learning and growth the #1 priority and I am trusting that everything will unfold for the best as long as I stay in my heart, avoid acting out of fear, and remain patient.