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It's no trick Jguy. When I was lost in all this I had an intensely wise woman say to me, "Your wife, your business, your hobbies, and your friends are irrelevant in the decisions you make about your life right now. All that matters is what you want and who you are."

Honestly, it frustrated me to no end. I would reply that until I knew if I was getting D'd, where I lived, what I did for work, and all of my future options were put on hold. MY WHOLE LIFE was put on hold.

But it wasn't. Yes, it's more complex with your W living with you, but then again it's not. You are not your M. Your life is not your M. You have a million things to focus on other than your M. In fact, you've told us yourself that not pressuring your W leads to her coming out of her fog a bit.

What if you lived your life with a purpose that was greater than your M. To be the best father to S7 that you can be. To be fascinated with the myriad of other topics that exist in the world besides your M. What turns you on outside of your M? Dive into those topics. Become an expert in model trains or gardening or something. I know it sounds impossible, but it's not once you start.

It's an awful question, but one posed on here, "What would you do if your W had passed? How would you live after the mourning period?"

Personally I would travel around the world meeting fascinating people, surfing, learning to do yoga, climbing mountains, volunteering, teaching English, and getting myself into all kinds of adventures. So I am. Without my W. Without waiting to see if she turns around or not. Without even caring if she notices that I'm not the boring guy she left. She's irrelevant in this decision. If she told me the only chance I ever had of a R with her was not to go I'd blow her a kiss on my way out the door.

Is this because I'm over her? Not at all. I'm still hopelessly in love with her, so much so that it still pisses me off. I'm going because I want to and she's removed herself from my equation. You see? It's about me, regardless of the effect that it has on my M. I'm bigger than my M right now. So are you.

Your W has someone else in her life Jguy, and she's still got you. Moving forward is not moving on. But hovering and calling it moving forward isn't moving forward either.

Reverse the focus from her and what she's going and how you're effecting her. Give her space by turning that focus on you and S7.

PP

JGuy -
Serious question:

Can you make it through TODAY?

Ask yourself as often as you need to. When the answer to that is 'no', then you'll have your deadline. Anything else you do is setting expectations or putting pressure on her.

Slow down and worry about the present.

The days are passing, yes, but I am not happy in this limbo.

I have been doing lots for myself. I have made several new friends, rekindled connections with many old friends, deepened and healed my relationship with my father, have been getting out backcountry skiing regularly, started doing a lot more for my health like PT, Chiro, meditation, and got a standing desk at work. I have been journalling, quit a couple of habits that were keeping me in a rut mentally and weren't serving me, read 2 self help books including DR and am halfway through another, and am continuing to be a great father.

I am starting to feel more solid now in the GAL department, but it doesn't displace my need for a sense of closure, or at least a sense that things are moving forward in the sitch with my M. I'm unhappy waiting around for my W while she continues to disrespect our M by continuing to contact the OM, avoiding anything that is difficult. I am allowing myself to be violated by tolerating this, and this hurts how I feel about myself. If she's genuinely using this limbo time well to do some soul searching so that she can make a decision from the right place, then that is understandable and I am willing to wait, even though it's hard for me. I just don't really know for sure whether she is avoiding or soul searching. It's hard to tell. Right now, she seems to be doing a bit of both.

The IC's advice to me yesterday, given her knowledge of where my W is at, is that if I don't set any boundaries at all, then my W will likely continue avoiding. She encouraged me to set a time limit on how long I'm willing to wait before I really need to take care of my own need to get on with my life, with or without her. I need a partner I can grow with. I am not perfect and I have things to learn, but without a partner who will communicate with me, be honest, and put forward a genuine effort to resolve conflicts together, I am just playing tennis with myself and I'm not actually learning anything about intimacy.

Unlike some folks here, I do believe that D has its place, once someone has made a real effort to try everything and their spouse just won't budge and remains unwilling to grow and participate in the R. The question is, how much effort is enough? The thought of waiting in this limbo for months longer is really, really depressing. Especially when doing so isn't even a guarantee that things will work out with my W. Having a partner to grow with is really important to me and if that's not my W then I'd like to get on with my life and find someone else.

If my W shifted into making a real effort, then yes, I would be very patient from that point forward as I understand it would take a long time to heal our R and bring back the attraction. But when she's not trying at all, still avoiding, still behaving like she's single, looking to the OM as soon at things get difficult in our M... I'm just not willing to wait around with things in that state for months longer.

I suppose Azzork is right that I should stay present and take it one day at a time. I feel like 2 or 3 weeks is about all that I have left in me, but who am I to say what I will feel like when that time comes. I want to give a "reasonable" amount of time for my W to do her soul searching, but if she wastes that time by continuing to avoid, I need some kind of limit. I can't keep waiting indefinitely.

Jguy

I feel for you. We all have our limits and at some point you shut down

Some people take a while to get out of the fog and its hard to wait around. Being in limbo stinks....

It really comes down to what will make you happy and if being strung out isn't in the cards, pack it in. It could come back around for you!!!

I think you should pull the plug and file D.

Nothing is going to change in 3 weeks or 3 months, particularly not if you are so enmeshed in your W's addiction as she can't begin her journey until she's free of your attachment. And if a growth resistant spouse is grounds for divorce then I think you both have grounds.

I am not giving this advice sarcastically at all, I simply truly don't believe it behooves either of you for you to fight a battle for your marriage you can't win because you don't have the commitment or tools.

I could talk about what I would do, but that's irrelevant because we have different views and values. I don't believe an irreplaceable partnership is replaceable, and I wouldn't want a partnership that is. I believe that while it takes two to make a good marriage, both people contribute in different ways, and either partner might be convinced the other party isn't doing their part. I believe that marriages go through cycles, and that if you get through the 'for worse' there is time to reach the 'for better'. And that there is something sacred about this commitment, and when it breaks there is nothing more than a series of flings ended by the same story with different stories told about why they had to end.

But again, 80% of our society shares your view and will support and understand your decision. I'm sure you will find a divorced woman that you can be with for most of a decade until she feels you aren't doing your part and cuts out. From what I hear the first 12-24 months are pretty amazing with endorphins and feelings of attractiveness and validation. If that's all you're equipped for might as well enjoy it. And who knows, second marriages have a good 33% success rate, maybe you will actually grow a bit after this marriage dies and you have to own your part and deal with your life by yourself, and meet someone that is exceptional, and you might be able to build a marriage close to as good as the one you could have with W other than the broken family, replaceability of it all, and the fact there won't be anyone to share your love for the children with. But it would be easier now for sure, and I know you'll get through. No need to suffer in this way if you're going to go down this road is my only point. Just suffer in other ways and save your pride.

Zeus, are you feeling angry that you wasted your effort on me? I get the sense you may be feeling that way. I want you to know I do appreciate all the effort you've put into being there for me. I don't always agree that the advice really fits for me but even so, none of it is a waste, even if I do decide to give up on my W. I am learning about what's true for me, and all of this is helping me get there.

I too believe in the sacredness of M. I agree that way too many people give up way too easily on a M as soon as it gets difficult. They fail to see how their childhood issues are contributing to the problems and they blame it all on their spouse. They leave, go find someone new who seems different in all the right ways, then end up repeating their failure again. That's exactly what my W is on the verge of doing with me. I have been through three long term relationships before I was married and I have learned this from first hand experience so I know what you are talking about. You are preaching to the choir.

But what is a person to do when despite their best efforts, their spouse is completely absent and not participating in the R? They have done everything they can to be willing to forgive, be patient, communicate their needs respectfully as a request and not a demand, etc, and their spouse still doesn't respond or make any effort to grow in the ways that the R requires of them? You can detach, GAL, work on yourself in isolation, but all of us ultimately need a partner who is engaged and whom they can grow with together. If this need is not fulfilled and the partner won't budge despite your best efforts to change what you can about yourself, then is it really honoring the higher purpose of life to remain unhappy by staying in the miserable M? How long does one keep trying before enough is enough? I'd say this is a very personal choice...

It's important that I explore this question for myself. I am facing my own ambivalence and it's important to me that I explore the full range of options. I guess what I'm doing here is mapping out what my own beliefs are. I'm figuring it out. I do believe it's OK to choose divorce if I have tried everything I can for "long enough" and my W is consistently stuck and not making any progress. I cannot conclude that yet.

The way I think about it, BD sets the two partners at the head of two separate paths. Each partner then has to walk down their path. It will take whatever time and distance it takes. You cant see the end of the path until you get there. And theres really nothing you can do to guide or steer the other person down their path.

Thats what I see you trying to do. By having all of these deep, mutual introspective discussions. By crying together. By setting arbitrary deadlines. It's all trying to control her to get to the end of her path more quickly. Unfortunately, it just doesnt work that way.

Let's play this forward. Let's say you set a deadline of three weeks for her to do "X, Y, and Z". She wants to stay married (we think) and so, she does X , Y, and Z. And for the following six months, sdhe continues to do them. Then, she starts doing them at 75%, then 50%, until shes right back where she is today.

If she makes changes for YOU, then they wont stick. She has to get the self motivation to make these changes or they will just be temporary. And then where will you be? Right. Back. Here. Probably after OM2.

In my opinion, the whole point of DR is to figure out positive buttons that you can push in her to help breed the desire within her to change. Looking for new ways to act, react, and interact to result in different and improved behaviors out of her. You doing the same things over and over is not going to get a different result. What are YOU going to do differently?

That said, if you want to put a deadline of a few weeks, then fine. Do it. But as Z said, you may as well file for divorce now.


It sounds to me like you are on the verge of doing the exact same thing to your W.

It's all good Jguy. Posting on DB forums is no different than DB. I don't have any expectations about your responses or behavior. I am not attached to your journey. I am choosing to do what I wish, and respecting the autonomy of others.

There is no waste here. Half of what I'm writing is aimed at other readers. Sometimes it is easier to learn about yourself by reading someone else's sitch since our own defenses aren't up.

I remember in I was in group therapy once. As we went around the room and everyone talked to the counselor I saw them get angry, defensive, denying they had any issues, meanwhile I had my jaw on their floor because they were all messed up. Person after person had massive problems, but they all kept denying it, acting like they were fine, everything was under control. It was eye opening. Then when it came to me I realized...I probably had problems too. Even though I felt that I was normal, everyone else was screwed up, the experience of having SEEN that first hand in so many other people with obvious issues...it was enough to wake me up and make changes.

You are a brilliant, talented, and accomplished person. You have a big heart and a ton of passion.

To me this all looks like a trap. The smarter they are, the more talented they are, the more likely they are to believe they have it all figured out, all under control. I know, now's where you explain to me that you don't think that, you're open minded and taking pieces that fit, etc. That's fine JGuy. All I'm saying is that when someone hits rock bottom there is a certain sense of humility that comes with. People speak more softly. People are afraid of making decisions because the ones they've made have been so destructive. That's simply not where you're at. But you will be. Without fail I know that this is in your future, I have seen this play out too many times. Bookmark my posts and when the day comes your pain exceeds your pride you can reread the threads and it will look totally different when you truly need help as opposed to debating for the sake of self validation.



My XW just told me last week "I believe marriage is the ultimate sin. Our struggles showed we weren't meant to be together." This is word for work.

I'm not upset by that now, but I do get irritated with people that claim to be committed to marriage that aren't. It is disrespectful to people that are serious about it and to those that take you for your word. If you missed my black and white post here it is:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...439#Post2615439



That is a very difficult question, hard to answer, and harder to execute...but I won't even try to answer that yet. Because it's simply nowhere near the reality. There's a lot of things you talk about in theory that are completely absurd:

-your best efforts
-spouse completely absent, not participating
-you have done everything generous possible
-spouse makes no effort to grow as required of them
-We all NEED a partner where we can grow together
-If partner won't budge
-How long do we stay miserable???

There is a ton of expectation, scorekeeping, judgment/criticism, and blaming in here. This proves to me you not only haven't done everything you can, you haven't even started your journey. All of your writing and debating has been a dog chasing it's tail. You can debate this too, I'm expecting you too, that's fine. Your journey Jguy. Normally once people truly grow and change, find their own happiness, and respect their partner as an equal (which means she gets to grow and change in her own ways, not the ways you think she's supposed to)...it's amazing how marriages can be transformed. But no, if your happiness is conditional upon her growing in the ways that you think she's supposed to, which will coincidentally allow you to stay the same (or allow you to keep growing in the one dimensional direction you are comfortable travelling)...then this is not going to work.

That is why I suggested filing D with all seriousness. I wouldn't tell someone to take their kids to the fair with only $2 in their pocket because they probably won't be able to gain admittance, much less do anything fun. What you're bringing to your marriage is not going to get you far, if you don't have more to bring then save the trip.



I understand. I think of beliefs as paramount, things that we exalt over feelings and thoughts, because feelings are misleading, and our thoughts are as well stemming from our feelings...beliefs keep us on track, and prevent us from following our feelings and rationalizations off a cliff. I think it's backwards to try to reason out beliefs. In fact, I wouldn't even call them beliefs at that point, I'd say you're spending time rationalizing what you want to do. I get it. Like I said, the danger of being smart.

I gamble on pool. I don't win much from people that don't think they can play. But the people that are talented, hard working, best in their local city, gifted, and confident...those are the people that are willing to bet thousands. That's where I've made my biggest wins.

I say this because I believe lack of humility is your greatest challenge. But that's ok. As I've said, it will change. Or it won't. I don't wish you the pain it will take to cause that change, but for your sake I hope it comes sooner than later, and that you gain from it when it does.

I am not one to give up easily on M. It would take a lot for me to do that. I really would need to feel that I had tried everything, including being patient in limbo for as long as I can tolerate. I am not there yet, but I am feeling very anxious about how long that might be. It's very painful for me to be in this limbo, and since my W's pattern has always been to avoid, I feel taken advantage of when I continue to be patient and she continues to avoid.

I found it helpful what Azzork said here:



I am starting to see how this is very true. I must be honest that it is extremely disappointing because it means I really haven't any control over her part, and that means I can't do anything to guarantee it will work out. I am having a really hard time letting go of my deeply ingrained instinct of trying to influence things in one way or another to try and produce the outcome I want. This is just the type of person I am. I am very determined and good at creating the life I want in so many ways. In this sitch, I feel totally powerless about something that is so very dear to me. This puts me in a very uncomfortable place. The thought of having to remain stuck in this place for months is very hard to accept. I can see it's true that unfortunately, I really don't have a choice if I want to save my M. Getting my emotions to accept that and actually let go seems to be another matter, however. I find it very hard to pull myself together and stop trying to influence things or hurry things up. Ending the M myself is a form of control, so I have to admit that may be a factor in why it seems attractive.

Know this about me: Just because I have moments where I go to extremes in my feelings and thought process, it doesn't mean I lack humility. I think Zeus is right to observe that I have a strong mind. It serves me well in so many ways, but I do recognize how there are times where I need to be able to set my mind aside and allow some kind of higher wisdom to guide me. Doing this is extremely difficult for me as I am an Enneatype 5. The higher wisdom is very elusive and seems to visit me in little glimpses here or there. Most of the time I am left to wonder what the heck I should do, and so I try to figure it out with my mind. Admitting that I'm basically lost without the guidance of grace isn't easy. I realized today that if I was going to end my M, I could only live with that decision if I was able to contact my higher wisdom from a state of grace and confirm that it was the right thing to do. I am not there. So for now, I am stuck in the living hell that is this limbo.

Hey J, hope it's going well for you. I, too, go to extremes. I am not passing myself as an example of how to be a righteous man, I'm not the teacher.

I do believe limbo is the best training ground for the person you want to be. There is no reason it has to be tough. You can be content, at peace, happy, appreciative in the present, here and now. I think the limbo is actually exactly where you should be, because whatever is preventing you from achieving that peace is exactly where you should be focusing on growing. It's like lighting up arrows showing you the way to go. It is priceless.

Have you read AUBob's threads? There's another man that faced limbo. He's struggling. If you haven't read his last thread or two I think you'll find a lot there.

Take care and find some joy tonith Mr. Guy.