Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers Battles of the sexes?

So husband has kids this weekend. Kids have a classmates movie party to go to and husband asked if I would like to go with them all. He added a "for the kids".

Do you guys think this is a bit of a olive branch. But in a way that saves pride (he had asked a month ago about possibly working torwards a reconciliation)?

I have no desire to pretend to be a family "for the kids" When we are not. I don't do denial and pretenses for kids sake (still disturbed by MIL experience)

I did accept invitation, cause I know DB coach said to work torwards a friendship.

To all- I am hoping that we can have a discussion and an exchange of ideas without hurting each other. I apologize for the comments I made that minimized the pain women go through in a sexless marriage. One of the reasons I brought up the comparison was because I wanted to better understand things from your side, being alien to me. I have since learned there are things men don't have to deal with. Feelings of shame. Feelings of undesirability. And if someone has insecurity all of their life about their body image, a lack of interest from their male partner could easily compound this pain on the top of their deepest emotional wounds. I don't pretend to understand how you feel or how much it hurt, but I can understand what you are telling me. I think the comparison game was a regrettable choice of mine, I was going for expressing priority to women that didn't understand their men, I wasn't really going for a comparison about the depths of our pain and that was simply an idle thought that was insensitive and unproductive.

To BT- I may be like your husband in some ways, and you may be like my XW in some ways. But there are some big differences.

I never cheated on XW.
XW never spent month after month, journaling, trying to understand my pain, and trying to carry a failing marriage by rising to the occasion (or maybe she did...until she gave up, cheated, filed D, and never looked back).

I am not judging you for your mistakes in your marriage. I am applauding you for trying to do better.

I liken it to if you wrote a heartfelt love letter to your husband, and by mistake it went to the wrong address and he never got to read it. Was it your fault? I suppose. But it's a mistake, an accident. I recognize the thought that went into that letter, and while it doesn't make up for the fact that he didn't get to read it and while I am hard on 'good intentions', the reason I am hard on excuses/intentions is only when people use them to avoid taking responsibility and changing. What's important is that you felt remorseful that he didn't receive the bulk of your love, you took ownership, and you are correcting the address so he gets the next one.

Honestly it makes me a bit jealous of your next partner.

Julie- Funny, we both have thought the other gender had it easier. I think it's definitely hard for both genders. My opinion is that you can't replace a marriage. You can never replace someone that you can co-parent your children with and share that joy, the greatest joy in the world. It's gone. Kaput. It's taking the greatest gift from God and throwing it away forever. And you can never take away the pain in your heart. And you can never rebuild the same connections that took 10, 20, or more years to make, because you built them by being together while you grew. It's like if you have an hour to build a sandcastle, and 45 minutes in a wave washed it away...you don't have much time to build the second.

This is hard, but I'd rather talk to the reality and spread the word to those that can still stand by their marriages (on and off the board) then cling to the illusion that marriages can be replaced because we want to stay in denial. They can't. That's why we are here. And I am tired of hearing people think their next relationship will be 'just like my last only better'. That's the same thinking that our spouses subscribe to.

However, in 45 minutes of sandcastle building we did get better at it. Our next relationship will never replace our last, and it will never be what it could've been if we'd had those skills 10-20 years ago, or even what we could've made it had we had the chance to use those skills IN ADDITION TO the history we shared. But at least we've learned, and have taken those away.

Anyway, that's just why I think it's hard for both. So for me, first of all I don't meet many women. I forget who asked me if I have women friends in real life, but the answer is no. Unless you count my mom. Nope. I've had 2 serious relationships with women, one 5 years, one 10 years, both cheated and left me. Not saying it's right, but I feel that there is only room for one woman in my life. Point is, I'm not exactly giving myself a lot of opportunities, I can't blame my gender, but just goes to show that it varies by individual.

Beyond that, who am I going to meet? A younger woman that wants to start a family? Yikes. I have a family. Do I want to start another and just use a mulligan? What will that tell my kids, that I want a redo and I need to focus on my new 'get it right this time' family? And beyond that, a younger woman without children is not going to have the relationship skills you all are learning. She is going to put me through the same crap I went through, and even if I'm a better H this time around she'll probably be a terrible partner as we all were, and then right before my eternal loyalty is rewarded in any way, she'll probably leave me for some fantasy man that makes her feel alive again, because she doesn't know better. Then, what, I'll have to start again in another 15 years, and right when my child support runs out with XW I'll replace it for another 15 years, and move out of another house? Then what, find another young woman? So I can just keep being used and abandoned until I run out of house buying days and get cremated because they've sucked everything out of me and there's nothing left to bury?

OK, I got carried away Point is, I think we ALL have to contend with that. It's really tough for all of us. The divorce rate for second marriages is frightening, women are faced with men wanting teenagers without kids, men are faced with women initiating divorces like Subway puts out meatball subs.

Bottom line, I am secretly holding out for the DB dating forum for post D members. I think you ought to be able to go back, read someone's old threads, have them read yours, and then see how many mutual flags there are. Then again, I'd be competing against a lot of pretty stand up guys, maybe I'm better off with eharmony...

Vise- Good points. Just remember one thing. There is a big difference between living without sex because you're single, and because your spouse is avoiding it. Sex is not a physical need. I can take care of that. Is the difference in physical pleasure between a woman and a Baker's Square Apple Cream-cheese pie warmed to 99 degrees and double saran-wrapped that significant? I think it's the emotional connection that makes the difference. When we are in a relationship we want to share love. We want to give it and receive it. We do both through sex. We may have to learn other ways to give depending on W's love language...oh, just thought of something...but the point is that when you're in a relationship your need for sex is totally different than when single.

To All (again)- I just thought of another reason sex is so important. Not just to meet our needs to receive love...but to give it. Even if XW TELLS me she doesn't feel loved through sex, since it's how I feel love and my reptilian brain still thinks it's an expression of love, let me love you that way too! It's like my kids drawing me pictures all the time. I don't need more Rorschach ink blots, but it's how they express love, and by accepting them THEY feel connected and happy because they got to love me. That's pretty special.

You guys are the best. I still can't believe people read my crap. I'm just some weirdo in a hotel room on an out of town business trip, but instead of feeling lonely I have the best time posting to you all. Thanks for being my pal.

Thanks, Zeus. I should clarify that I meant you and My H are the same in that physical affection is your most important LL and you both suffered in SSMs, so I think my H probably felt the same kind of pain you felt in your M. That is where the similarity ends.

I did not mean to offend!!

You did not in any way. I understood what you meant, you aren't the type to put others down. Besides, you married your H so he can't be bad to the core.

Zues, what you said about your kids made me think of something I read once - when it comes to romantic love, it is more important for people to love than to be loved. I guess most of us have experienced affection or love from someone we weren't really interested in, and it's true - it doesn't matter one bit how much they love us if we don't feel anything for them.

Hopefully, you will meet a woman in your own situation, someone who has grown through experience, maybe with children or maybe not wanting them. More and more women choose not to have children at all, you know. I chose not to in this M.

I just happened across this article. I didn't look at it with the thought of a future partner, rather looking back at when H and I met.

http://www.upworthy.com/3-things-to-watc...-partner?c=ufb1

Funny article. I almost stopped reading halfway though...I'm very conflicted about this advice. They build a powerful case about being selective. It is just opposite of what I always believed.

I always believed in arranged marriages as being practical. That you can learn to love anyone. That it's not who you marry, it's what you two do together. That any pain from being with the 'wrong person' could be exceeded by the elimination of the pain that comes from always looking around for greener grass. That in this country there are 300 million people, a fixed number. Swapping partners and divorcing each other doesn't change the overall pool, all it does is cause more pain, and in the end if we just paired up, STFU, stayed together, and put more effort into making our relationships as good as they could be, understanding that they probably wouldn't be everything we were always looking for, the loss of 'compatibility' would be more than offset by the reduction of instability.

The grass is greener where you water it. So don't look for the perfect lawn, just learn to garden. Most of that means appreciating what you have and learning to be content.

So with all of those beliefs, I tend to react negatively to articles that make it sound like selectivity is the key to marital happiness. I always thought it was about attitude, and that selectivity put focus on external happiness and just made people miserable.

For me, the biggest trait I'm looking for is a partner without this outlook...in general.

Of course, that was the old Zues. Little by little I'm learning it takes two to make a marriage work, that since other people don't think this way I have to adjust to the world I live in, and that it's ok to find someone that both is committed and ready to find happiness in an imperfect marriage with me forever, AND someone that happens to like Baker's Square Cream-cheese pie...

Hey Zues,

Your view that sex with a partner and with out is the difference of love is a valid one. By my W refusing to have sex with me she was refusing to accept my love for her in the form that I wanted to give it. She felt like I was using her for sex and that she could be replaced with any woman. Ultimately she would be right for the physical part of it, to some degree. But its a closed minded comment to make, her and I together is unique and she could never be replaced just for me to have the same sexual experience and exchange of emotions.

I had a interesting experience last night, W was in the spare bedroom across the hall and both our doors are open and I can hear her every move, so I assume she can hear mine. She moved in bed and I can hear the sheets and the sound of movement then it stops. So I copy the length and duration of the movement. Then she does it again, and I copy again. It was like a Morris code back and forth for a hour duration of the night. The movements intensified and shortened until there was a release on my end and I stopped all movement. All movement ended in her room also.It was like she was there with me in the room.

In the morning nothing is said about it. We both greeted each other with good morning. Is this type of interaction helpful to me at all to get to R? This is not going to help me detach. Do I have anything to worry about? I was in MBR, I should be able to do what I want in there I think? Or is it best to leave that sort of thing for when W is not home? I just don't want to give her reason to say she feels unsafe in the home as a way to force me out.

I think you need to accept some invites given the context.

I remember telling DB coach "when we're divorced I won't be doing this or that with her". DB Coach said "you're not divorced yet".

When was the last time you talked to DB Coach? Did you ask her about this weird standoff you're in?

HI Guys,

Really sorry I missed the original post.

I know I am late but would like to throw in my 2cents worth, especially as sex in marriages is probably one of the most underrated, understood and damaging forms of expression in any relationship.

We may not have sex with our partners for years and even criticize our partners for trying to initiate and go so far as to say it is not something we need and can go without.

If however we find out that our partner has a one night stand we consider it important enough to divorce them.

Small contradiction I think.

If it is something that is so important to only be shared by partners then it must be looked at in its real context from both pov and not selfishly.

Anyhow, I disagree with how some posters look at it as a form of expression of love exclusively or as an exclusive form of expression.

Sex cannot be the ONLY way of expressing love. There are other constant trivial forms that fill up the love tank in a man/woman. It should be one more form as well as the culmination. To not understand this is to run the risk of falling into the trap of making our partners believe we only touch them when we want sex.

JulieH told me something sometime ago that I had to make my wife FEEL desirable. Make her feel sexy. Wanted desired. The easiest and most ignorant option is at night wanting to hump her brains out. Wrong. I tried the approach she suggested of filling her love tank.

Small comments on how good she looks, small caresses, kisses on the neck, hugs from behind, sleeping close or spooning without initiating, making her laugh, letting her catch me looking at her, etc...

PLUS

Applying Sandis mention on respect, self confidence, etc ...

Does seem to work..

I guess my problem and that of many is that we have sex with our W but do not see them as a sex object. What I suppose JH was saying was to look at her like a woman like a stranger would. A sexual object, attractive and desireable. With the rules that she is our W but nevertheless as a woman and not just our W. Let's be honest, we expect to have sex with our W but how many times have we taken one step back and looked at them and said DAMN!!! mmmm, I want to tap that ...

I have become a firm believer of needing to spice things up if we are to have good sex. Especially if our sex life is suffering. I also believe that JH is right, our W can sense if we desire them.

I can say that from my own experience applying these techniques we ML the other night, she never complains about my compliments nor shys away from my caresses. I also have to learn to not over do it. Just get it right.

To be honest, I spent so much time resenting her and being afraid of initiating anything that I forgot she was a woman as she I a man. I remember she put her mouth as a whatsapp profile and I said I wasnt used to seeing her sensual side. She said it was always there. I replied that maybe it was but it was never available to me.

Note I say sex ...

I think we do have to separate ML and sex.

I am a firm believer that sometimes you want to make love and other times you want hot dirty sex. I dont think I need to go into detail on the difference and if you cant see the difference then I suggest you investigate as homework.

I also think sex as the ultimate is on a higher plane than ML. I think you have bad sex which is where a lot of marriages are at, then there is ML which is when things are OK and then there is good raw sex. The type where you are already eating your spouse with just your eyes and cant wait for the kids to go to sleep or out.

The type you book a hotel room for or spend some money on lingeries or toys.

Anyway just my ramblings and opinion.

Peace

Max