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Cali,

I have reading along mostly silently since you started piecing. I'll just start by saying, you can't say you didn't give it all you got.

A very wise DBer who became a dear real life friend of mine reminded me today that I can be as understanding as I can but I to have needs that should be met too.

You deserve that. You deserve to get back what you put in. That may one day be in your W, or with another woman.

You did what I have struggled with for many years. being honest with my partners and myself about my feelings and needs. You did that with your W. That is why you feel at peace.

I hope you continue to find peace, love and happiness because you deserve it. DBing is wonderful concept and it works wonderfully for us as individuals. However, to truly save a marriage, both parties have to be willing and dealing with their own stuff too.

Best of luck to you. You'll be better than good, no matter what

I can feel your frustration, it's well deserved. There is now no doubt in my mind that your W is still baking. I wonder if that process is harder for them while living together.....you have a tough choice to make here....S makes it tougher.

Maybe take some Cali time and space for yourself. Look deep inside...what feels right for you? You have truly done all you can do. Moving out sounds good, but you know W will continue to count on you for numerous things. Not to mention the back and forth with S....it would take a while for that adjustment to settle....

But you know what Cali? As much as I hate being in that situation, I am totally grateful I don't have H MLC in my face. It also gives me MY needed space to not only do my work, but to figure out what I want.

Knowing you, it won't be long before you find your answer. Stay strong Cali, you are handling things so well. Being at the same time length, I understand your peace with yourself right now. I think it is huge with helping us decide our paths.

Cali,
You've had many ups and downs on this journey of yours. You've fought the good fight and yet, she's still in the oven baking. Who knows just how long it will take for her to bake completely or if she'll remain in the oven the rest of her life.

Cali, the time has come to do what is right for Cali. You need the time and space to help you make some decisions. You can't do that when the MLCer is in your face every day. Her emotional roller coaster is one that carries you on it whether you want to be on it or not.

Sometimes reconciling w/a MLCer that's not fully baked creates more heartache, frustration and disappointment along the way. At times, it can even create resentment and yes, we do want them to hurry up and wake up once we are back under the same roof w/them. We tend to forget that it takes months for them to finally feel good in their own skin.

Cali, I do not normally encourage people to separate, but you've tried and from where I'm sitting, you do need the space and time for yourself. I realize you share a son, but I'm sure the tension runs high in the home and he, too, needs a place of peace, quiet and comfort right now. However, if you do separate once again, you will need to set boundaries and she will need to understand that she must find her way on her own and that you are not going to be there every time she calls for help. Why do I mention this? Because she's still hasn't grown up. She needs to learn to stand on her own two feet and not rely on Cali to come rescue her.

Sit quietly, the answers will come very soon. When they do, you will be able to make a decision that will suit all of your needs.

Hi Cali - sorry, I am coming a bit late to the party, but better late than never huh!

I was sad to hear your update, you have been devout in your endeavor to reconcile your m, never losing hope or the optimism that it will come right in the end. I feel at this point that retreating is a sensible course of action, your w is clearly not in the right head-space to handle a committed relationship with you yet and as you realise, living together is hindering her working through her demons as you have become a crutch for her, a reason to avoid facing her feelings and thoughts.

Hindsight is a wonderful word isn't it; the shoulda, woulda, coulda statement. You did what felt right to you at the time, there is no right or wrong way with this, only lessons to learn from. No one can predict what the outcome of any action is going to be, we just have to jump in and hope for the best. You now know that your w is nowhere near done with her crisis, she has a long way still to go yet and I think you already know that she has to do this on her own, without Cali supporting her ....even from the sidelines.

Your s has already experienced dad living on his own so it will be familiar to him. You give him a stable environment and he responds to that. Keep on being his dad and he will love you for it.

When we first join this board it all about searching threads for the ones that give us hope that reconciliation is possible and does happen. As time passes we grow and change, addressing the things about our own selves/life that we want to improve on and in doing so we find that actually the focus is no longer on whether we reconcile, its about what will make US happy, fulfilled and complete. You have worked out what you want for your life and from your future partner, that is fantastic, it means that you have found the light after the dark, you have come through this a better, stronger and healthier man. Cali, whatever happens, whether your w eventually catches up with you or if you find new love or even decide alone is ok, you will be just fine because you will make sure of it.

Hi Cali
I've read your whole sitch, started it even before I registered. I've drawn strength from your posts. I agree your W is not done. I can't imagine how difficult it is for you since your sitch is different than mine ( my w is gone , hasn't bothered with the D's in nearly 6mths) . Yours is in your face every day .

I'm so glad I don't see her MLC life. Maybe it's time you move out and let her bake some more. Do what's healthy for you and your S. Your W is texting an OM2 and deleting it. Even if there is nothing she should be open to you and hide nothing. She's not working on the M. I don't want to be too direct here but you know that this can't happen this way. She needs to want it.

She's going to lose a great guy. Maybe she needs this reality to help her bake a little more.

Do what's best for you my friend .

Irish

Ok … so many “Thank You’s” …. I have over the past few days read all your replies more than once … as with most my posts this too will not be short, I often laugh thinking if any newbie decided to read my threads from start to finish their MLCr is most likely waiting for them outside the tunnel by the time they would finish … ok it’s funny to me anyways. I am going to break this up in 2 posts just for simplicity as I feel obligated to at least reply to those of you who have been so kind and supporting throughout this, I am at work so I have no access to the site so I type this all out via email .. copy and paste it here from my phone.



I have dug in a bit, researched and read/researched and read some more, and I continue to read in the specific area I have found myself in which is, she darted back into withdrawal due to the serious amount of guilt she is beginning to feel from her replay behavior. … I really do see where I am right now (has nothing to do with me really), and where W is as far as I can tell(She is still in crisis and became stuck for a bit, but there has recently been movement hence the recent issues). And as job and others have touched on .. I am currently trying to quiet myself and await for an answer as to be bluntly honest I have found myself at a crossroad between moving out, or seeing if W can surge forward rather than backwards… still to be determined. (Update next post)



So to address those who I missed, ….without the copy function



Fogg: Yes, this is not easy and over the past week I have found some very helpful resources and just knowing this too has been script for many has been helpful, does not make it any easier. I do hope by me posting about this portion it will help others, let them know sometimes it is OK to push, because what I have realized is this is MY M too, I will have to be happy in this, I could very well just ride along and be thankful my family is under one roof … but I deserve better, I will not settle just for a M, I already made that mistake before BD, the next M has to be better after all the work, otherwise what was all this for?



Sotto: Thank you. I have learned for some .. what my wife is currently doing/has done is not all uncommon, and yeah she has not had much to offer, I came to terms with this a few months ago and approached that as just ‘being’ .. enjoying the time and removing the pressure which was good thinking no pressure from me would help the reconnection (I think it did with S and the dog… but we all know the spouse is the last they reconnect with), but at the same time made things a bit to ‘cozy’ and W was no longer dealing with the issues and no longer doing the work …. She had all she ‘needed’ the comfort of ‘family’ and me at arms distance.



Bttrfly: Is this over? … no. It will never be over in the fact that her and I share a S, at some level I will always have her in my life as my S will always be in my life, the question is at what capacity will she be involved with me as that is my choice/decision at the moment. Truth be told as FY hit on it … I do sense she does not want me out of her life, throughout all this she has been the Clinging Boomerang, never allowing me far even in the heat of her A with OM she would not let go … texting at all times of the night as to be screaming out for help, using every manipulation she could dream of, the future of our M may hinge on this very thing as she is close to having to make a choice … this very well could be a defining moment for myself, her and our M. Or .. (I laugh as I type this) … could smply just be another step towards where ever this ends up, the MLC journey is a long one .. but I am learning the LBS journey is even longer … we actually get to remember every tree/bridge/house we pass.



FY: My friend…. Sometimes I shake my head, you are probably the most kind/gentle loving soul I have seen and when your W awakens and realizes what a man she has … I would love to see her face. I did not really think about a few things you pointed out … the part about her still caring, I guess she says she “Cares for me and loves me” I take that with a grain of salt like I have been ‘friendzoned” … I know better than the “Ahole-zone” but not where I care to be. The other part of your post that perked my ears was No one can match what we have to offer, I understand that and feel this to be true … I just hope her pride and stubbornness does not get in the way for her because things are close for me, I will be ok regardless … deep down I really would prefer this to be with W, but again .. not in my control.



Ginger: Thanks for stopping by, I think one of the many thing I learned in all this was one of the mistakes I made in the old M was not voicing my needs … I was a fixer/pleaser .. maybe I still am to a point as with all things it’s a process (That whole leopard/spots overnight thing), I catch myself ‘fixing’ from time to time, part of that is my fault, other times being with a master manipulator I do not realize it till after the fact and have a “Doh” moment.



M: We seem to have walked this crap road together for how many miles? Sitches are different but for some reason we usually cycle our emotions pretty closely at times, I have read that there are LBS stages just as there are MLC stages … seems we are both about on par for the course. As far as the process being harder living with them … this may shock many but I do not think there is a difference and I will explain why. If you asked me that a few months ago I would have said “Heavens yeah it is” but look at the sitch .. what changed? W is still in crisis just as she was when we were separated, the only thing that changed honestly was me, and with that my detachment and my expectations. (For those reading … when/if you get there .. Reconnection/Reconciliation is a very very tricky area for us as its hard not to look a t a new M with detachment and expectations but one must realize with the MLCr they need to see certain things before you truly are reconciling .. remain detached and no expectations during the reconnection) I arrived to a point when we went to Retroavialle she was coming out and I mistakenly thought .. ok this is it, we will reconnect/reconcile and things will start getting better …. Things did not play out as I thought in my head, I believed I would see remorse for the damage caused .. never did. Was more of a “I said I am sorry .. lets move on” kind of approach …. She was still in crisis and I seen the bright shiny lure and forgot this for a bit. From what I have learned, she still has issues … but she realized at some point last year I was about to be gone and she was not ready/willing to lose me so she woke up a bit, possibly prematurely … once she felt safe she reverted back into Withdrawal and was still reconnecting with S and the dog as crazy as that sounds … I however have been put on hold. She needs to face her issues, the ones that she has yet to deal with but along with that I have seen a tremendous amount of guilt come up, I see it in the spew, I am able to understand she is back to projecting her guilt and anger towards me in an attempt to deal with her own stuff .. the MLCr way .. not owning it and blaming those around them.



Job: You have seen enough I would imagine you could write a book or four on this stuff … I understand no two sitches are the same, different varibles .. but also see so many similarities. I have read back a bit of my own sitch and outside looking in yes, reconciling with a MLCr prior to them baking will create more heartache and frustration .. but honestly I do not think we are there, we are hardly even reconnecting and my gut tells me she is holding back as the first and second waves of guilt have landed on her shores. This has set her back, unfortunately I am not under the same roof and she has lost that solitary area where she would at the least be stuck with herself and have to process through things. So yeah … me being there has removed her from dealing with her issues and she has cranked up the rollercoaster once again. I also believe you are right in me separating from her once again, I have been leaning that direction as I feel as good as it would be for me personally and for S … W also needs this, she really needs to be left at her own devices to deal with her issues, with me serving as her training wheels she is never going to learn to ride her bike on her own, I have known this deep in my heart. Its possible this could be done with me detaching and remaining home (Learning as I go) … but I am really uncertain of this at the moment … there has been a ton of movement over the past few days … again .. I give this to Him and pray he guides me, as He has done so throughout all this. However .. me moving out very well may be the final push she needs … I also feel in my gut that I have to push her here, hold my ground and if it means I lose her that’s ok, I have not lost a woman who is committed to me nor our M, I lost her years ago and I know I will be more than OK without her.



Lou: Thank you for stopping in and your words. As far as the update … many people reply “Sorry/Sad to hear” … As strange as it is .. only posting the good stuff would be of no service I feel, I think its paramount to post the bad with the good as its real, it would be misleading to have anyone come on and believe its all daiseys and rainbows and even after a MLCr seems to want to come back to the M its still hard, piecing is difficult but even harder in MLCville as there is still baking that needs to be done and my sitch I pray will assist someone else to keep that in mind, the crisis is far from over and the baking continues. You are spot on with that assessment, not that I felt she was done … but was mislead a bit when she put her issues in a box and up on a shelf just as I did …. Then those boxes started making noise and required her to begin dealing with them, I think this would have happened regardless if I moved in or not .. but I do honestly feel they sat on the shelf longer than they would have. Again … moving back in at the time I did was a mistake, one I have made but have learned so have others in my position … I trust it was for a reason, if nothing more than for W to realize what I bring to the table, what I have to offer, what it is from me she may possibly want in her new M, regardless if that is with me or another ….. I do pity if it is someone new as he has quite a bar to live upto, he will never be the man, father or husband I am … heck I am not even close to becoming the best in those areas yet as I strive to become better every single day.



Irish: I read your sitch early on, I have not caught up on you as of late as I have been really digging in doing some serious homework. But early on I did not really feel I could lend much as yes … you have a vanisher, mine is more of the CB type, approaches I think are similar but the vanishers absolutely in my opinion have it harder as you cannot even see where the MLCr is as far as the stages, like tracking a hurricane from the Rocky Mountains. As far as the OM2 thing … he was a friend prior to the crisis, a work college she kept in contact with … and yes, I agree not being transparent and deleting this was one of the red flags for me she is not done baking, still being selfish. I equated it to … what if I cheated, would I even risk such things like this that would cost me my M and family, no one would if they decided they really wanted to fix what they have done … w is not there yet, like a child she continues to do what she wants and test the boundaries. So yes, I have arrived at that place where I am very close to moving back out, letting her go about her journey, this is not saying I am filing for divorce just yet … I do suspect her to react as she did somewhat over the weekend (I hope to update soon .. just wanted to at the least reply to you all first)



As I said .. update hopefully soon … I have to run and get some work done but wanted to at the least respond, you all and your support does make this crazy train a touch smoother … My thank you and my wishes you all find your way out of this chaos follows.

Ok … where to start … Update/Journal

So our story left off with the hero … that’s me for you new to the show … at odds ends as the MLC Oven continues to bake out another cookie. Throughout the past few months W has seemed to go back into the tunnel a bit, I could feel it … see it … heck almost taste the familiar nasty after bite of the MLC cake .. the one she was feeding and getting chubby from. She has me home, as the father to S, as the familiar family she so desperately seem to need, but strangely this is not in the rold of her husband nor any of the things that come with a husband and wife relationship … Trust, Commitment, intimacy, … none of that stuff, a live in helper with S, Groceries, bills, cleaning and the general errands allowing her a breather if you will from the MLC-train she was on for some time … as I posted, a breather from facing her issues whatever those may be, something I am not sure I will ever truly know as far as what these are.

What I do know .. atleast now is she dipped back inside a bit, and as I posted earlier this is not all that uncommon along with this feeling I have had brewing in me over the past week or two that I needed to push a bit. Typically its never a good thing to push and add pressure to the MLCr but at times I have leanred its up to the LBS to pull them through here and there and in my heart I feel I have arrived at this point. Its not out of frustration nor punitive .. I am at a point THIS is not the M I want, its not the foundation I want to build a new R on let alone a M. With this comes a risk, W could very well run for the hills but what would I have lost? A W not committed to a M, somone still being selfish and resorting to spewing in order to try to regain control of this R … well I have already tasted life without her, I have already let her go and am prepared to do so again in order to preserve the work I have accomplished to this point … she is testing that resolve currently so it’s a 1960’s stlye game of chicken on the freeway at this point. I worked Fridaynight as typical, came home and ate some leftovers. I have this condition that sometimes happens, its influenced by anxiety (There has been a little bit as of late eh?..lol) and eating red meat… my esophagus will lock up, I can not eat/drink until it relaxes. The first time it happened I was scared, it lasted about 12-14 hours… after that I learned a bit about it, figured out what to do/stay away from and the frequency and durations became less and less. Well That episode lasted 24 hours … was getting to a point I was about to go to the hospital but thankfully it passed. During that time W was pretty sick … S and I layed around the house watching movies as W rested up in the MBR. Sunday Morning I was feeling so much better I woke and walked the dog… went to church, the Priest who has been over seas was back, I felt blessed and happy, this man I swear has been touched by God, and his homily as typical were specifically towards me. “Allowing those in our lives to go on their own journeys” … yeah

So I came home and W asked if I wanted to go and do the shopping with her, I told her I would but had 2 appointments at 3-4 I needed to go to. She asked very casually and I told her very candidly they were apartments I was looking into. Cue spin cycle in 3,2,1 and here we go. At first there was this shame and disappointment, she said “I thought we were giving it till March” … This came from our R talk when she brought up she had decided what to do about ‘us’ meaning D, I told her that night I felt the same and was giving things time, had circled March in my head as I personally would have some things paid off and be able to afford a better place for S and I, along with the fact it marked the 1 year point of when she brought me to the beach an in tears told me she did not want a D and wanted to work on the M. So somewhere out of that … she heard “Lets give this till March” but did/said nothing that would make me think anything had changed, to this she said she has been sick. So I simply said … “Ok .. so what has changed? Are we going to come up with a plan, a list, something … set up MC … or revert back to what we know now what has not worked is leaving this all up to us and just going about things like nothing happened.?” The Monster woke up and let me tell you, has not flossed in a bit and had some spew, I calmly told her I would not be talked to/bashed and left the room, she followed, I left that room, then ended up leaving the house. She blew up my phone with more spew, reminiscent of the early MLC days and at that point I realized its her way of trying to regain control …. Texting vile things about me never pleasing her in bed, one sided sex, I never amounted to anything, I am a failure, the oldies but goodies … I did not reply and ended up going to the movies. I watched … ironically .. The Hateful 8, not a bad flick, a good 3 hours there. After I checked out the 2 apartments … neither really what I am looking for so that search continues.

When I arrived home, W approached and asked if I was avoiding ‘them” referring to her AND S, I said no I had some things to do … I grabbed some water and went into S’s room and was reading a bit. She came in and talked a bit started up again about the sex … seems to really be something there for whatever reason and she said for once in her life she is thinking about that as I told her its honestly not really on my radar. Purposely avoiding the fact she now has the STD … which I think she has been trying to bait me into throwing in her face, I do think there is a serious amount of guilt there. I told her I had not been thinking about sex because we are not emotionally connected so I felt its not something I wanted to share until we had worked on that, she brought up my boundary about not wanting a Sexless/Loveless marriage … I told her Yes, I do not want that in a M, I even asked her if she wanted that … with anyone … I also told her that takes time, and we have issues that are blocking intimacy … during these talks .. whenever I say we or us, she will yell .. “You mean ME” … again .. I think it’s the guilt eating at her here, just my observation.

So went to bed without issue, I woke up a bit before the alarm and W was a total mess. Its amazing when you can see it on their faces, what this depression can physically do. She came over to me and asked 3 times if I was ok, each reply was “I’m fine” … then I asked finally how she was .. she told me terrible, complained about her neck. This lead to her breaking down and crying, telling me she is sorry, asking for me to forgive her again, and again … I told her she needs help, she asked with what I tapped her head to which she replied “I’m not crazy” I softly said… I never said you were but you have issues you are not dealing with and they are affecting you physically and as someone who cares about you enough to tell you the truth, I think you need to get help and stick with it, not just quit when you feel better for a day or two. She got a little upset and told me to stop as she was insecure enough, I STFU … then she admitted she had all this anger she does not know what to do with, she felt so ashamed .. all in tears. Now I am not sure if she was just ashamed of that days performance, or the past few years … nor did I ask. She left to get ready as I went about my morning ritual. Later that morning she hugged me, told me she loved my hugs and all the sudden she was better …. Why? Because I think she feels she fixed this for now, stalled and I am back where she wants me … far from it but I think she felt that way.

That day(Yesterday) was all NC till she was leaving work. She let me know she had to go to store X to get her prescription asking if I needed anything, I told her “ok, nope I am good” then she asked about dinner for S .. I told her we would pick something up… received a “Fine, btw I have an interview Monday and S does not have school” I let that go and went about my eveing with S. Pretty uneventful evening, she asked for help on her work computer with Excel which I am quite proficient at. I had helped her on this project before … a few weeks ago, well her boss now wants some graphs to show her progress on this progect they brought her in for, I am telling you … she has made hardly any progress on this thing in the past 2 weeks, I could see the stress in her face. So I helped her till about 9 last night .. I know I know .. Mr Fixer … after about 9 I told her its late, I had to walk the dog and take a shower (To my defense I would have stayed up till 12 to finish this for her in the past) She actually got a little snooty … to which I snapped a bit and said .. “Ya know, you are welcome, you would not hev been 15% to this point without my help, the least you could do is appreciate what I have done for you it is not my fault you are in this position I was simply trying to help you out here, my mistake it will not happen again.” This felt like scolding a child, her reaction was the same, she was dumbfounded and did not even think she did anything wrong then cried because she got in trouble.

This morning I woke, same morning ritual as usual, Walk dog, pick up, wake S, get him breakfast, iron my clothes .. get S’s hair locked down from anarchy to almost a boy-child. As I was leaving W approached me, thanking me again and telling me she appreciated me and it was only a misunderstanding (not apologizing mind you) I told her it was ok … then mini R talks … she told me she wanted me happy, that my face looks miserable and has for the past 3 years. This has been said before … again .. I think its guilt , if she looks at me and I am not smiling or laughing its like she punishes herself for the damage …. Heck I could be thinking about a math problem and she things I am unhappy. I reminded her that my happiness does not fall on her shoulders, but I do not living in limbo. She told me I am welcome to the MBR, I told her I do not feel welcome nor do I want to share a bed with a woman who does not wanted me She interrupted “You mean sexually” … I left it alone, told her to have a good day and left.

Today, received a few texts .. first one “I hope you are having a good day. Thank you again. I am going to grab us all dinner tonight ok?” I replied in kind but short .. little chit chat about S, and her interview on Monday coordinating when I can take time off and take S.



Ok … so that’s all up to the now. As far as where I am, I am still set on moving, it’s a matter of when really, I would love to stall out till March but am not sure I can really deal with W and this that long, its like front row at a Gallagher event without the tarp and I am just getting all this crap all over me. But I also know the W, she will test and react and try to get me to stay and it is upto me to hold firm in what I have to have out of this, I just do not feel w is close enough to come out and give me those things, not now anyways … maybe 6-12 months of baking solo she might have come far enough .. I do not know .. no one does … this MLC is different for everyone, but what is certain, she still needs to address those issues, she was all broken and sobbing Monday Morning, now she thinks she has patched the ship adequately and tries to keep it afloat … in my head .. Game of Thrones .. “Winter is Comin” I know she really needs to break before she will rebuild herself and she will never break because she married Mr Fixall, I have to allow her to fall before she can rise and rebuild and become a better woman for it all … admitting our M may never be again which is fine, I would rather she escape the tunnel and MLC and not be with me, than to stay M to me and remain forever stuck in there.

She currently keeps busy with anything and everything … avoiding that work, but on the good side, she has been so much better with S, actually into the trivial things he finds cool and important to him .. like silly Plants vs Zombies games and movies, heard her this morning actually engaged with him, so their reconnection continues to improve and I am thankful for that. Dealings with me, a bit more at arms length … again .. we spouses are the first to be cut out and the last to be patched in .. if we ever are patched back in and I can see now, actually owning what she did, something I never thougt ever she would have done not only to me but herself … has to be a tough thing to do, I would respect her if she ever does do the work here but also do not blame her for avoiding it …. The fog lifting and exposing it all must be horrible, for her sake I do hope she finds peace and some balance in this mess. For me, I think getting out and letting her attempt this is the best gift I can give her, she may see it as abandoning her, maybe one day she can see it as the best gift of love a man could give his wife

Time will tell, I trust the path I've been put on.

Just hugs and more hugs

V

First of all - you DO realize this is abusive, correct? Even though I suspect this is largely projection (turn all the "you"s into "I"s and I think it fits her pretty well, don't you?). Does she do any of this negative stuff to your son? If so, that's a SERIOUS problem.



Hopefully you have been scoped to maker sure there's not a stricture? If this is just esophageal spasm, get your doctor to prescribe you a bottle of viscous lidocaine - you mix a tablespoon with some liquid antacid (like Mylanta) and down a shot - numbs the esophagus and lets it relax (my mom gets this). It can save you a trip to the ER.



Don't know if this is close enough to where you're looking to be, but a friend lives in the Shadowridge Country Club aptmts right on the golf course in Vista- nice quiet complex with views of the golf course and a nice pool area.

Great posting and great explanation of feelings. My heart goes out to your W, she sounds to be in a horrible "place" Let the man upstairs do his thing, as you are.

You however, sound to be in a strong and clear place. We are very similar in our LBS "place" I can relate to exactly what you say, you are just so much better with the words!

Funny, my H is also doing great reconnecting with S lately, I will need to update some of that on my thread.

You are sounding clear on what you need to do right now, the future remains unclear and no decision needs to be made right now, so try not to worry about that. Focus on the now, as you are. I know we both wait for the answer to unfold...I am here right with you my friend.