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Wow. Sounds just like my W. She has given me the same stuff. She'll never find anyone as good as me, she thinks something is wrong with her, there is something broken inside her, she is not worthy of the kind of love I give. Mostly seems like self esteem issues. Didn't stop her from checking out and having an A though. Maybe they need validation?

Im not really sure thats what Im saying.

The way I see it is that you have a goal and your actions should be those that get you toward your goal. My GUESS is that your goal isnt to "understand the emotional root of your wife's troubles". I dont know that exposing and hashing through those will get you closer to your goals.

I do believe that the "what" is more important than the "why" in the short term. I believe that the "why" will come out eventually; it doesnt need to drive your actions.

Fair enough. I guess find it quite difficult to commit to certain actions when I don't fully understand why I'm doing it. When my gut instinct is pulling hard in the opposite direction it feels especially hard to resist that when I don't understand why I must do so. Recently, I have been having a hard time committing to no R talk with my W whatsoever. I have managed to dial it back significantly, but I have moments where my gut tells me that we could use a bit of talk to establish where things are at. Being this patient is really, really hard. It seems like gaining a deeper understanding of why I must be patient would help to make it easier to be patient. The problem is, it's really hard to gain that deeper understanding without talking to my W at all!

I had a dream the night before last where my W came to me with a friend, to talk to me and help me understand where my W was at. Her friend did all of the talking because my W couldn't speak for herself. Her friend was explaining to me why she was attracted to the OM because of the way that he could intuitively understand her better than I could. I felt helpless, since I don't know how I could possibly compete with that. I very much want to understand my W, but I can't read her mind. I need her to help me understand her by communicating her feelings and thoughts verbally, like her friend was doing on her behalf in the dream.

I think this dream says a lot. From the beginning of our R, my W always had trouble communicating and representing herself in the R. When I tried to reach out and ask her what she was feeling, and especially if I tried to bring up a conflict that needed attention, she would always avoid, withdraw, and sweep everything under the carpet. This is one of the main problems which I have come to believe is at the root of what led to the affairs. Without her stepping into the game to be honest and represent her own feelings and needs from a place of self-love and mutual respect, we could never resolve any problems together. She just always avoided everything, causing things to pile up and suffocate our emotional connection. It makes sense, and I can understand how she is just doing what she learned from her non-existent R with her parents and their non-existent R with each other. This helps me to forgive her for her poor R skills and be patient with how hard this really is for her to develop them. The problem is, she hasn't seen it this way and hasn't made any progress in becoming a better communicator during our entire R. I feel like I have been too patient, and now that it has led to the As, I am seriously questioning if I have over-extended myself? It seems like I need to establish a boundary that I have never had before regarding this. I have to be willing to walk away if she doesn't finally come around to seeing that she needs to take responsibility for her half of the R.

On the other hand, maybe I am missing something about my part in this. Maybe there's something that I am doing that pushes her away and makes her feel like I'm not safe to open up to? Throughout the R, when my needs weren't being met and my attempts to communicate and resolve these conflicts were repeatedly avoided by her, I would naturally become frustrated. In my frustration, I would sometimes get a bit demanding or critical towards her. Was there a better way that I should have responded in those situations? Were there ways that I could have been more welcoming toward her in general, more empathetic? More intuitive about understanding her like the OM supposedly is, according to her friend in the dream?

For the record, I never had this problem with any of my previous long term Rs with ex-GFs, so I'm leaning towards seeing this as something that my W needs to fix, not me. Ultimately, it's her responsibility to come to the table and represent herself if there is to be any R, isn't it?. It's as though she's still behaving like a child who needs a perfect parent who can always read her mind. I can't make her grow up in this way and I can't bridge the gap all by myself. How patient and understanding should I be before it crosses the line into neglecting myself by continuing to tolerate an empty R where the emotional connection is starved by her unwillingness to grow up, which I have no control over? I often felt frustrated by this and throughout the R I either respond to it by expressing that frustration directly (demanding/critical), or by kindly trying to explain what I was noticing, encouraging her to seek help (teaching/fixing). I'm really not sure how else I could possibly respond, other than setting a hard boundary and being willing to walk away from the R if she doesn't take responsibility.

Perhaps it's neither her fault nor mine. Perhaps my W really needs someone who is a better empathizer than me, more similar to her in personality type, who can intuitively understand what she is feeling without needing her to explicitly verbalize it? Maybe we just aren't right for each other? We are quite different, and so I do need a lot of help to understand her at times. Is it wrong of me to need a partner who can represent themselves and help me to understand them when I ask for that help? Is that too much to ask??

So, as you can see, I really am confused about what it is I need to learn here. Do I need to learn to be more empathetic, less demanding and critical, more patient? Or do I need to learn to be less tolerant of poor behavior, set better boundaries for myself and let go of trying to fix things that are my W's responsibility to fix? Or just wiser about recognizing we aren't right for each other?

Back to work today is helping, highly engaged there, GALing is much easier when I am away from home and away from my W. I hooked up with a musician friend after work who I have always wanted to get to know better. He is such a kind soul, and somehow he really helped me find my way back to myself. I came home feeling very detached. Like I had been pulled out of a weird trance that I didn't even realize I was stuck in. I feel way better than how I felt for the past two days.

I picked up my guitar for the first time in quite a while, decided to re-learn a song that I wrote when I was 18. It is a song about how relationships aren't always easy or happy, and sometimes you just have to accept that's how life goes. It's as though I embedded a message in my own song that would help me later on in my life. I knew how to let go when I was 18... why is it so difficult now? I guess the 18 year old JGuy needed to remind the 39 year old JGuy.

I had a good IC session today in which I got some answers from the counselor on the questions that I asked at the end of this post from two days ago.

I explained my confusion about what I need to learn from all this. Do I need to learn to care for myself more by setting better boundaries and not tolerating behavior from my W that leads to an unfulfilling R for me? Or do I need to learn how something about my behavior is in fact contributing to the problem, which I'm not aware of?

The counselor answered this by saying "Sadly, what you need to learn (which IS your contribution to the problem) is that you do need to learn to care of yourself by setting better boundaries. You need to be willing to walk away from the R if it isn't working for you." The counselor said that me learning how to set boundaries may be exactly what it takes for my W to realize that she needs to grow up.

From early in our R, it bothered me that my W would not participate when I invited her to discuss problems, disagreements, or conflicting needs in the R. She always avoided everything. I would hit the ball to her, but she would never hit it back. At the time, I tolerated this when I really shouldn't have, and I can now see that this is exactly what led to the affairs. I feel angry but also disappointed in myself when I think about this and it sinks in... I was right all along to insist that we really should talk through things together. Her affairs are living proof that I was right. If anything, my mistake from the beginning was that I failed to set a boundary regarding this need. I should have communicating my need for two-way collaboration in the R as a non-negotiable need, which I wasn't willing to live without. I did see this problem early in the R, before we were married. I even had one counselor back in early 2007 suggest that I may want to consider ending the R if this problem wasn't resolved. At the time, I was too attached to the hopes that I had invested in the R and couldn't bring myself to end it. My W was gorgeous, I had fallen in love with her and it would have been too disappointing to throw her away, I thought. So, I ended up finding ways to minimize my needs and enjoy the good things about my W while downplaying the things about her behavior that were problematic.

Looking back and reflecting on all of this is helping me to really clarify what my part is in all of this, which is helping me to gain closure and detach. It's also helping me to see that I really am a great guy and that I deserve better. I'm not perfect and I definitely have much to learn still, but to grow, I really need a partner who can represent herself and who can also listen and make a genuine effort to understand me. Building a strong M is a lot of work and I can't do it all by myself. I needed to recognize the importance of this and be willing to walk away in the beginning, but I just didn't have the strength to do so at the time. I was just coming out a long depression when I met my W and had very few close friends and community. It was hard to believe that I would find the right person if I let go of my W at the time.

So there you go. That's what I needed to learn from this experience. It's probably not the only thing, but it's the big one. Given that my W is still on the fence right now and is avoiding the decision as to whether or not she wants to work on the M with me, my counselor encouraged me to set a boundary with my W now, by saying something like this:

"I have a need to move forward with my life, either with you or without you as my W. I love you and want to work through our problems together and make a real effort to rebuild a new M, but only if you want the same thing and can commit to the hard work it will take. Even then, there's no guarantee that it will work out, but we'll never know unless we start that journey with sincere effort together. I want to know if you are willing to give it a try with me. I can appreciate that you need space to think this over and make this decision from the right place, but I cannot wait indefinitely as this limbo and your continued contact with the OM is very difficult for me. You have had 3 months to think about this now since the BD. I'm willing to wait for up to 3 more weeks. If by the end of January you still haven't decided, then I don't know if I can continue waiting beyond that. Would you be willing to make an effort to decide by then? Or do you have an alternate suggestion to propose?"

I know that this approach goes against the DB advice that many of you have shared, which is to be very, very patient. Given the nature of my contribution to the problem (lack of boundaries to take care of my own R needs), I am conflicted and when I try to imagine remaining patient with the limbo for several more months, it doesn't feel good. My IC agrees. Thoughts?

Hey jguy,

I feel your pain. I have been in this limbo state for 6.5 months and as far as talking to your wife goes... I talk to mine way less than you talk to yours, trust me. It is a very tough spot, very tough. I too have trouble figuring out how to handle it though I do believe in the DB'ing philosophy.

I do not know your situation completely, but I can relate it to my own. I think if I sent that paragraph to my wife or spoke it to her, that would be pretty much it. I think a deadline is a bad idea. I, personally, would definitely not set one. I would either determine that I have had enough and start the process or wait. I have thought about doing something similar to what you have above myself. I just do not see how that could turn out favorably for me (your situation is different of course). Someone else on here set a deadline recently... it did not turn out well.

Maybe a strong boundary in regards to contacting the OM is the way to go?

Anyway, hang in there.

Whenever it comes to ultimatums or timeframes like this on here Jguy, they just don't seem to work. If you want your M to workout, then live the letter, as opposed to writing it and telling it to her.

It sounds cliche, but be the man she'd be a fool to leave. Right now there's something that's missing for her that she's getting from OM. I highly doubt your letter will snap her out of it. Live it instead. Do your part for you. Start taking care of yourself and building up your own strength and self esteem without her. She'll either notice and make her own changes or not. This letter seems to be controlling under the surface, it's got an air of "I'm willing, so you better be too, or else."

Instead of working on the M, work on you. Get strong in the ways that you are not. Set your own boundaries about what you expect from yourself and practice living those as opposed to focusing on your W.

I can tell by your posts that your very introspective and sensitive. You know how you feel. You know the feelings underneath the feelings. What are some actions that you can do for yourself. Are there activities, projects, ways you can get your hands dirty?

GAL that lets you not dissociate from your feelings, but allows you to put them to the side for an hour at a time and do something fun, something that inspires you, something physical.

Your posts are still filled with thoughts of your W, how to better understand her, how it seems to understand her in ways that she doesn't understand herself, or before she does herself. Saving your M isn't about becoming a mystic.

What about Jguy? What about Jguy in relation to himself, not his W. What about S7? Are you working out? Eating well? What are your 180's? Are you coming at your sitch from a place of strength? Masculine strength?

It feels like you're coming at it with the notion that if you can just read into her a bit more deeply, either by understanding yourself, or her on the deepest level then this puzzle will be solved. That's my impression anyway.

I did the same thing in the beginning, looked at what was there and wasn't, how it all tied together, what the possibilities were, and how I could meditate and journal my way into having her come back. It ain't happening. She's on her path, you're on yours. But to get on yours you've got to let go of her for a bit. Your letter isn't letting go, it's quite the opposite - it's holding on tightly while talking about letting go.

At the beginning of our sitch's even our best attempt at detachment ends up with actions that have a subtle tie to how it may or may not effect our W's. The true power of DB'ing is when you're making decision regardless of how they may ever effect your wife - as long as they are positively effecting your life.

My 2c.

PP

pinn and PigPen, I am thankful that you shared these perspectives. After I wrote that last post, I went out for dinner and a beer with a good friend from work, with whom I have confided my sitch. I went over the same thing with him. It is so difficult to decide what to do in this limbo where I don't want to burn any bridges as long as there's still a chance. The thing is, I still feel like there's a chance. In fact, my sitch appears to be better than average compare to a lot of other folks whose sitches I have been following.

Since about 12 days ago when I really started to let go by dropping all pressure and expectations on my W, her behavior has shifted significantly. The IC told me so as well. She said it seems to be working and my W is now talking quite differently about the OM. It's as though having freedom to choose what she wants has finally given her the opportunity to decide for herself what she wants without pressure. Now she is really turning her head and looking at whether it might be smart to listen to the IC, other friends, and me, and make a genuine effort to reconcile.

When I described this to my friend, his advice was that maybe I should give it some more time. Since I have only been giving her space for 12 days and it seems to be working, why would I want to suddenly interrupt that by applying pressure again by setting a deadline. Perhaps it's enough to tell her that "I can't wait forever" - which I have already told her - and then just back off for another week or two while I continue to observe her behavior.

It's just extremely hard to endure this limbo, that's the challenge. I am so fed up with who she used to be and so certain that I don't want to be married anymore to the person she was, and to a large extent, still is. Since I am becoming very certain about what I want and don't want, it is very tempting to apply pressure. However, I can see how if there is any possibility that she might come around to deciding on her own to change in exactly the ways that I wish she would, then that definitely won't happen by me applying pressure. So it's either wait and endure the limbo, or just decide for myself that I've had enough and leave.

The catch 22 is how can I decide that I've had enough and leave when I can see that giving her space seems like it might actually be the very thing that is starting to work?

I have been GALing, focusing on myself, but it is very hard to forget about her and completely let go and stick to that. Especially when we are still living together. I have been in that mode for only 12 days, but heck if I can do 12 days maybe I can do 20. 30. Maybe it will get easier and maybe it will start working better and better. Or maybe not. I'm having a hard time making a firm decision about just how long I'm willing to wait.

For now, I'm going to hold off and I'm not going to propose the deadline. This is crazy hard...

...on the other hand, maybe what I could do is set the deadline for myself but not say anything about it to my W. I find it extremely difficult to detach, forget about my W and focus on myself in this sitch while we are still living together and while we are still undecided about whether or not we want to try and save the M. It feels like I am in a prison where I can't move backward and I can't move forward either!

I hear what folks here are saying about detaching and GALing, but it is just so hard to do when I am still half in. The entire future of my life depends on what happens with my M, so how can I really move forward, GAL and not obsess about the M? Isn't it normal to want an answer to the question of what's happening to my M so that I can decide what I'm doing next? Am I wrong to think that if I was totally out and had decided that it was over, it would be much easier to detach? Is there some Jedi mind trick I haven't figured out yet?