Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers Letting go, finally

JGuy,

I am sorry to read your struggle and commend you for the road you are taking to heal your vulnerabilities and the hurt from your FOO (Family Of Origin) issues. It is not easy work and can be overwhelming. Your struggles are understood here.

I am sorry to that you are at this time not feeling the intent of Zues' and Azzork's words and comments. You have been fortunate enough to have been singled out by them to receive their wise counsel and guidance. Many here would consider it a privilege. Please do take that to mean you have to experience them that way. But I want you to know a little bit of the men you have supporting you.

I personally don't know Azzork's story very well, but I do know him to be honest, clear and respectful to those he offers his support to. He is a man who keeps us forward focussed and keeping DB goals and philosophy true to every action in our day to day lives. He supports people to work their plan.

Zues out of all the boaders/posters here, he likely knows more than anyone the journey you are on as your describe it above. Read his threads. His struggle, his work, his change is out there for you to read. If Zues could prevent all of us struggling and being in pain from this journey, he would. In fact he does. Zues shares his knowledge willingly, with integrity and vulnerability. He makes an example of himself so others can thrive and avoid pain.

JGuy between Azzork and Zues you have a wealth of experience and knowledge. They have fallen in all the holes, have made all of the mistakes and have overcome and are good solid men. If they are giving you a DBng 2x4, they likely are seeing something you are not. And JGuy we all get them, and we all need them. Otherwise we would all keeping doing what we have always done, getting what we have always gotten.

We all feel hurt, in pain, vulnerable, exposed, under fire and overwhelmed, particularly when this process raises historical hurt and pain from our childhood. I know what I am talking about JGuy- me more than anyone understands this.

Please hang in there with the advice and support you are being given by these two good men.

Alternatively the joy of discovering yourself through IC, through co-dependency and FOO work, is that you learn you have choices about what to take on board and what to let go of. Either way there are so many lessons to be had.

JGuy you are at the beginning of this journey, please breathe, take your time, and keep posting. I am pleased to see you giving your uncensored account of your experience. There is no point being here if you don't. For me this was a brilliant exchange of learning and becoming a man only a fool would leave.

I will keep following you JGuy because I am interested to see where this journey takes you.

I posted this evening because I wanted you to know that this is not a cold and cruel place. You don't know my journey and I don't expect you to. But of all the places I have been in my life and f**k I have been some awful, lonely cruel places. This JGuy isn't it.

Much love and light as you continue your journey JGuy. I hope you keep posting.


JellyBxxx

WW's are very emotional creatures. They thrive on it, and they are directed by their emotions. We have seen accounts where a WW will be crying her eyes out on the day of divorce, and yet.......she goes through with it. It's like she has these sentimental feelings attached to the MR, however, her need for escape pulls at her very strongly.

Men are confused whenever their WW show any type of physical/affectional contact, b/c mean want to associate it with her loving him. Naturally, the men read signs into those actions, but usually get shot down. Many, many WW's are in la-la land so badly that they want to continue getting the advantages of being the H's wife, but they still want to be free. She wants the cuddling, the affection and security, and wants your friendship.......but she's wayward and is a mess, not knowing what she truly wants. Just running on emotions.

If you are in a "trial" separation, then that is how you should conduct yourself..........as a separated couple. If she goes to you wanting affection, you may have to remind her that this is a trial S and if you were D, there would be no cuddling, laying together on the same bed, etc. She needs to see the reality of what S/D would be like for her.

IMHO, you may feel that you receive conflicting advice. Your IC talks to you about your inner child and much focus is place on your feelings. Then when you post on the board, you are told not to follow feelings. I could see how frustrating or confusing that could be on a newcomer. We have seen people who were going to MC, IC, a spiritual counselor, and coming here. When you have more than one source of guidance or counseling, there is usually some difference in the advice. Sometimes, a person has to choose which one is helping the most and you feel more comfortable following. (I'm not wanting you to leave, btw, just making a statement).

You are a very sensitive man, and you don't have to be ashamed of it. I don't think anyone is saying you should. Those who have been around for a while, know that a LBH has to dig deep for the inner strength to carry him through this journey. If he has a WW, he has to present that firm strength, or she will not turn back to him. I think that it the message the members are saying. Cry all you want, just don't do it in front of her. A WW sees it as weakness in a H. Now, if it were another man who wasn't her H, she might feel sorry for him.......and your W may not want to see you in pain, however, when it is her H she sees breaking down, it doesn't have the same affect. You may think that's all hogwash, but it is the hard, cold facts about a WW. She isn't going to protect your feelings. She is not going to change her mind b/c of how it makes you feel.

I hope you will listen with a open mind to what the guys have to say. All the newcomer LBH'S has felt, at least a portion, of what you are feeling.

Warning: Uncensored JGuy responding.
Warning: Uncensored blue Azzork responding

Wow, Azzork and Zeus... you guys sure are tough on me and it hurts. I feel like I'm getting somewhere but whether you realize it or not, your words are having the effect of pushing me down, telling me that it's not enough, undermining any small amount of confidence that I have started to build.
It is certainly not my intent to bring you down or to destroy your confidence. But, by the same token, I dont accept moral victories as a thing. If my football team loses 58-0 or 30-17 or 28-27, its still a loss. It counts the same on the scoreboard; it counts the same in the standings. So when I see see you take 3 steps away from your goal instead of 10 steps away, I dont count that as a positive.

It is very discouraging. You are losing me here and I really don't feel supported when you take this hard approach on me. It feels like you don't understand me and it reinforces my impression that this world is a cold, prickly place where I am not emotionally safe.
I dont understand you? I have BEEN you. I have spent countless nights around BD up all night, crying next to my XW, talking at 3 AM, leaving for the couch hoping she'd follow me to comfort me, and so on. Im hard on you, because I WANT YOU TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE. Im hard on you, because I would have killed to be in the spot you are with the advice youre getting back around my BD. I did everything wrong. Every single thing. And Im hard on you because I see you doing the same things, and I know where it's going to take you.

I think you have a good chance at busting your divorce, and it hurts me to see you throwing it away because of the way you are feeling today. I believe you will live to regret it, and I dont want that for you.

You are suggesting that I do and say things which would require acting and being untrue to myself. At times I did experiment with this approach, but it felt very wrong to put on a distant, composed front toward my W as though I was strong and had it all together. I don't.
So because it felt wrong, then you arent going to do it anymore? The person that you were was cheated on multiple times and completely disrespected by your wife. By refusing to change, you are ensuring that the dynamic between the two of you will not change. Why do you expect HER to be the one to change?

YOU need to be the one to change. And change is hard. And awkward. And it feels wrong. But that doesnt mean it IS wrong.

Why do you WANT to be the old JGuy?

This whole experience has made me more raw and vulnerable than I have felt in as long as I can remember. I am not a baby, but there is a baby in me that is seriously hurting from birth trauma which I never healed from and which my W's betrayal has re-triggered big time. It is like being abandoned all over again by the one person whom I trusted the most to be a safe haven in this scary world. I get the impression that you have no idea what I'm going through in this regard. It is like a double whammy. The betrayal of being cheated on plus on top of that, being thrown face first back into the extremely vulnerable feelings of abandonment that were my first moments in this world.
You may be right. I dont really understand all of that. But if youre saying that the pain you are feeling is worse than what I felt at BD, then youre just arguing semantics. Yes, you may have a little more to sort out, but we are all in the same boat.

I spent four months thinking that the girl Id loved since I was 13 wasnt going to hurt me. Wasnt going to leave me. Wasnt going to betray me. But of course....she did. You dont need to tell me about raw and vulnerable; Ive lived it too.

I couldn't care less about being attractive right now. All I have is a hope that my attractiveness will come back in time, with healing myself. To heal, I need to care for that part of myself that is the baby who never received the nurturing I needed from my mother at birth.
Thats what were here for. Thats what your IC is for. Thats what a trusted friend is for. Thats what a pastor is for.

THAT IS NOT WHAT YOUR WIFE IS FOR ANYMORE.

She is not going to heal you. So saying that "Im coping as best as I can" is not a way to heal. Tell US about how youre coping. Tell her you feel FINE.

That part of me was bonded to my W inappropriately and that was my codependent coping mechanism. I am working on this with the help of IC but it is really, really difficult. Please understand that you have absolutely no idea... My journey is not one of "manning up" but of becoming very sensitive and loving to my own "inner baby" and learning how to nurture that part of myself so that he can finally heal and won't need to seek it from a woman anymore.
You are getting confused by the intention of the advice. Nobody is telling you not to feel those emotions. Nobody. What we are saying is that your WIFE is not your EMOTIONAL CARETAKER anymore. So showing them to HER is not going to get you closer to your goals.

Being ashamed of that part of myself and denying it by trying to man up is exactly what got me into this mess. This stupid culture that we live in does not value men who cry, who are sensitive. This culture can go screw itself. I am what I am.
I am what I am? So you cant grow? Cant change? Cant evolve? The whole [censored] point of DB is to grow into the person that you want to become. If you dont want to rely on your W for emotional support, why are you expressing to her how hard this is? why are you telling her you are having trouble coping? How does doing that move you TOWARDS your goal of emotional independence?

ACT emotionally independent. Then you will BECOME emotionally independent.

I am celebrating my small steps, with or without you guys. I am snapping out of any illusion I was in before that my W is remotely capable of being an emotionally safe person for me to bond with.
Then why did you say "Im coping the best I can"? What is your intention other than to expose yourself emotionally to her? If you want to be emotionally disentangled, then you say "Im doing fine." Like I said before, Im not going to celebrate that you are moving farther from your goal, even if it's slightly slower than before.

So what I can do, and which I have been doing, finally, is containing myself around her and taking back the responsibility of nurturing myself. This is my form of letting go and detaching, and for me, it is good enough.
Are you? Is saying "this is really hard for me" and "Im coping as best as I can" being emotionally contained around her? I suppose, it's better than sobbing uncontrollably, but it isnt going to move you forward.

For the record, I was already crying at the time my W walked in and surprised me. I stopped within 10 seconds. I didn't cuddle her... she came close to me, but I just laid there and didn't say anything other than "this is really hard for me". That was a big improvement for me over how I would have responded only a couple of days earlier... previously I would have gone on crying, cuddling her back, and talking endlessly, seeking nurturing from her. So although it may not look that way to you, it was a big improvement for me.
I suppose. This feels like saying, "I didnt shoot myself in the face; I only shot myself in the foot." This interaction did not move you toward your goal, it moved you away from it. I will reiterate that I dont think thats something to celebrate.




This is your journey, JGuy. You dont have to listen to a word I (or Zues or anyone) say. I wont pretend to know everything on this subject. I havent even been here a year, so I know that I dont. But know that I DO want you to succeed. Im on your team.

As JellyB (so kindly) wrote, my intent is to help keep you on track. I am not your cheerleader. I am just trying to keep your ship steered forward. Set goals and try to reach them. Why would you want to move away from them?

JGuy,

I'm pulling for you.

I'm one of those 'sensitive' guys. Cried a lot as a kid.

We want you to be sensitive. It's a very good quality to have in a marriage.

Right now, your sensitivity 'axe' is sharp. You have other tools in your shed that need work. Time to take the grider and some polish out of the closet and figure out which tool needs the most work.

Personally, my physical body needs work. My spiritual life is getting a tune-up. And my friendships other than my WW are being rekindled. Those are my rusty tools.

If we didn't care, we wouldn't post. Would I love my kids if I let them stay up all night? Of course they try me when I tell them it's time for bed. That's their job. I love them enough to be strong, and show them there is a right way to do things, for their good. Good habits become routine when you do them long enough.

We are ALL on the journey. Growth is scary, and really hard. I'm there with you.

You CAN do this.

Thank you everyone for the input on my struggle with how to deal with the hard approach that Zeus and Azzork have been taking with me. Rd500 was taking this approach with me awhile back too. I do appreciate that their intentions are good, but I stand by what I said. One thing that I would say to you is this: Although you have been through similar situations and you do have a lot of wisdom to share, you are not professionally trained counselors. Despite the fact that you may have good intentions and can see that something you know about applies to my situation, you are not trained at how to best communicate the advice in a way that is most likely to be helpful. I am telling you that this hard approach doesn't work well with me, and I mean it. That doesn't mean that I am rejecting the advice. I am rejecting the way in which you are delivering it. I do appreciate much of your advice and I appreciate that your intentions are good, but if your goal is to be a better helper to people who are walking in the path that you have traveled, then it may help you achieve that goal by listening to what I am saying now.

First and foremost, all I have is myself. As Sandi points out, it is up to me to integrate all of the conflicting advice that I am getting from different sources. So it's very important that I have confidence in myself to choose the best approach. Whatever actions I take, I need to be confident in my own process of experimentation and figuring it out for myself. Without that, I have nothing. I learned this the hard way 11 years ago, when I had a falling out with a meditation teacher and spiritual leader who couldn't see that she had created a cult which was having a destructive effect on the lives of her students. For reference, I described that and what I learned from it in this post:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2624219#Post2624219

It is because of healing from that experience that I have the strength now to say this to you. When I stood up for myself in this way with rd500 awhile back, he pushed harder, insisted that it was me who needed to be humble, and then stopped posting on my thread. That's unfortunate but I'm not willing to put anyone on a pedestal here. Yes, there is much I can learn from you guys and I do appreciate your support. But I am not you. We are all unique.

Lastly, I just want to point out that the majority of people here have taken a "tough but soft" approach on me which works much better for me. Sandi is a good example. I do need to hear the hard truth about the reality of just how strong I need to be in setting emotional boundaries my W, but I really prefer it when people deliver that hard truth in a soft way that is empathetic toward how difficult it is for me given where I am at. That is what is helping me the most to get it, build strength, and to actually make the shift into detachment.

Again, Zeus and Azzork, I thank you for your efforts to help me and for your good intentions. I hope that you'll understand what I'm saying without taking it personally and leaving my thread as I do appreciate your support.

So, as for my sitch, and the advice I'm having trouble digesting, this is the crux of where I'm stuck:

In the last few days, I have made a really good shift into letting go of my need to be emotionally connected to my W. When I said "this is really hard for me" I was not doing so in an attempt to pursue or try to emotionally connect. I was just giving her a status update so as not to leave her completely in the dark. She wanted to know where I was at, so I told her. But I don't want or need support from her anymore. Same thing when I text her "I'm coping as best I can". She was temperature checking. I was honest. Yes, it's really hard for me. But I don't need her support anymore. I am getting it elsewhere. As I mentioned previously, I am very ambivalent myself now about wanting to save the M. I have snapped out of it and I see how poorly she has treated me. I don't want to be back with this crazy woman. I was very close to pulling the trigger and accelerating the D process myself, but the folks here convinced me that it's worth taking it slow. So that's what I have been doing.

I'm not (yet) convinced that it's in my best interest to ACT as though I'm detached when I'm not actually detached. If I was to do that, then what would my intention be? I don't really have a genuine intention to save my M anymore. If I did, then I would still be attached to some hope. My intention is that I want to be a good man, respectful and loving toward her, but not for reasons of wanting to save the M. I want to be a good man because I want to feel proud of myself when I look back at how I handled all of this. Being a good man means not being manipulative. Acting as though I'm detached, totally fine, getting on with my life, would be dishonest. I am still in hell, not because I need my W back, but because my life has been turned upside down and that is not fun. The one thing I CAN be honest about is the fact that I have let go of needing to work it out with my W.

I have been uncertain about how to respond when my W temperature checks, when she comes back seeing affection and closeness. I like what Sandi said about acting in accordance with what a "trial separation" really looks like. This is respectful of myself as well as my W. I think I can do that while still being loving. It is a more distant form of love, out of respect for our need to move on. I think I can do this.

I'm still uncertain about how much I should say in our MC session today. I have no idea where it will go... will update tonight.

Of course Im not trained. But I am taking my free time to try to help you, because Im passionate about this, and because I want to give back to a place that offered me so much. Sometimes, I want to make a point, but I dont have the time or resources to craft a long post detailing my thoughts. Its nearly impossible to do on my phone and I dont have a laptop at home. If youd prefer I not say anything, then I can certainly follow your wishes.

I hope that my last post to you isnt taken as "too Hard"; if it is, then Im not sure that I am the right person to be offering you advice.

Im not trying to be a dick, so please dont take this the wrong way:

Given everything you said up here, why are you bothering to go to marriage counseling?

If youre already done with trying to save the marriage, why does it matter how you respond to your wife when she temp checks you?

That's exactly what I'm wondering. We booked the appointment a week ago when we were in a different place. I haven't felt compelled to cancel the appointment, so I didn't. In previous MC sessions, the counselor pointed out that it would be valuable to work on improving our communication regardless of whether or not we save the M. Since we are going to be co-parents one way or another, it will be valuable to work on improving our communication. I agree with this, so I am thinking of going with that intention today. Also, it may be valuable to use the session to clarify our intentions moving forward. If this is really a trial separation, then what does that mean exactly? Maybe the MC can help us to work through establishing details about what exactly this means.


Because I want to be careful not to burn any bridges, as you and others have suggested. Also, let me be clear that I am not 100% decided that I want the M to end. I am ambivalent which means that I have serious doubts of my own now about what I want. That isn't certainty, though.

The way I see it, a door is either open or it's closed. Sure, there are degrees of open - half open, all the way open, cracked, etc. But fundamentally, it's closed or it's open. If it's open, act like it's open; if it's closed act like it's closed.

The way I read your posts, you want the door to be open and closed at the same time. Or you are opening and closing the door back and forth by the day or the week. I think all of that is messing with your head. You are so worried about the "level of door-openness" that you dont have any headspace to figure out what to DO.

The way I see it, you dont worry about HOW open the door is; just THAT it's open. And if it's open, then I think that the advice youve been getting is sound.