Great points Kylie. There is so much misunderstanding between the sexes. The problems seem universal. And once it gets to that point, it seems like its too and close to impossible to fix it based on our newfound knowledge.
I feel like if both partners have their eyes open at the same time it can work. But it always seems to be w problem with timing.
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
This is fascinating to read, because I think my H could have written something very similar, and I think I have shared your XW's feelings. In our case, H developed resentment and got involved with OW, but he says he tried for years. I expressed unhappiness to H for years, and spelled out what I needed from him to give him what he needed from me, but nothing changed - but I wasn't leaving or cheating on him, that's not my way.
Zues, I wonder about what exactly you tried? If she reacted like me, the anger was frustration over what she saw as unwillingness from your side to give her what she needed.
I think very few women work silently, by themselves on resolving relationship issues. Silence from a woman is rarely a good thing...
I think many men feel that they courted a woman, then married her, and that should prove their love once and for all. My H will say he is simple to please, but he expects me to want to fulfill his needs without doing anything to fulfill mine. He feels that because he is attracted to me on sight, I should be to him. I feel that he puts the cart before the horse in how things should happen. And I feel that he can get what he wants so easily, if he would only invest a little effort in courting me on an ongoing basis. I don't think he feels he should have to. That is frustrating, because I see his pride and ego get in the way of his and our happiness.
And from everything I read, this is exceedingly common. Which is so sad!
Do you believe he understand what you really wanted and withhold it deliberately? If so, what makes you think so?
My experience with XW was that it was much harder to live up to her expectations that you are describing. And her communications seemed to be coming in both infrequently and in some strange code.
On my end it was literally "I want to have sex 3-4 times per week if possible. There are some things we have done together that I really enjoyed, like x or y, if we could do more of that it would be amazing because I never feel more loved." That's why I say men are easy. It's literally like asking to have a button pushed regularly to keep them happy.
...
So yes, this lead to a vicious circle. It may have been as simple as me feeling like "If you loved me you'd have sex with me", and her feeling "If you loved me you'd love me for who I am regardless of sex".
The reason I asked my opening question is that for the majority of the M I didn't deny anything to my XW intentionally. I couldn't win either because I simply didn't know how, or I kept clung to things that got in the way of intimacy. Then, towards the end it changed. I will admit that in the end when we weren't speaking there was some resentment at work, I was resentful of giving so much to her to get nothing in return. This, however, was after I couldn't figure out how to win. But the point is this is the same idea I highlighted in black up above. This idea that she doesn't deserve love or affection from me because she's not giving it to me the way I want.
So some of my distancing WAS abusive in deliberately denying her affection because she didn't 'deserve' it, and I was trying to control her behavior by 'sending her a message'. I firmly believe this attitude doesn't work at all in a marriage. I think the idea of "you do this, you get this" is a horrible model for loving each other. And THIS is what I think is too common. Love has to be a daily priority that is placed ahead of resentment, you must meet each other's needs even when you're bankrupted and resentful, otherwise the cycle doesn't get better, it gets worse. Again I'll mention Andy Stanley's "marriage expectations" series 1-3 on youtube.
As I said, I did have high expectations. We were a long ways apart on the sexual topics. I have learned how much it destroys intimacy when I put my desires in front of her feelings. I also know how it felt to me to not receive the affection I wanted from her. I STILL don't know how to bridge the difference on this one.
....
Long rant as always. My summary is that I did try what I could to make her happy and to figure out what that meant, and tried that for a long time...but then I did pull away, partly to punish and control, but also quite a bit just out of defeat and to get some escape from the pain. I have learned a lot about the differences between most men and women on the sexuality front, but instead of having answers, I only feel further from answers than ever. I have learned that a marriage can't be tit for tat, but having experienced the pain of many years of neglect I know how tough that challenge is and don't know if I can manage it.
No, I don't think he is withholding deliberately. I think there might be two forces at play: 1) he doesn't like to 'be told' what to do, and 2) he doesn't really understand how important it is to me.
The things I need and have asked for are very basic and, from what I read, typical for women: 1) Non-sexual affection - a hug or other physical touch that is not sexually charged, daily. 2) Small gifts or other symbols that shows he thinks about me when I am not standing in front of him. I have specifically asked for flowers on Fridays. I told H that the anticipation and joy I would feel would make me very happy and go a long way to set a great mood for the weekend. 3) Attention - a sympathetic or validating statement, listening without impatience or interruption, asking how my day was. Greeting me when he comes home or leaves the house.
I have seen several counselors to try to figure out our problems. H didn't want to participate. I was told by a male counselor that what I needed and asked for was reasonable, normal, and that I was unusually clear about it, and didn't play guessing games, like some women do. He said many women feel that 'if I have to ask for it, it's not worth anything.' I don't feel that way.
I know that H needs regular sex because it is his expression of love, and I know that having dinner ready when he comes home makes him feel like I care about him.
He also needs loving statements from me. (I'm not very verbally expressive of love, definitely an acts of service-person. I have found that people can say 'I love you' all the time without much meaning behind it, it's like a greeting. But H is a 'words of affirmation'-person, so he needs that and I'm working on it.)
This fits the 'typical' pattern of women needing intimacy to get to sex, and men needing sex to get to intimacy. If no one takes the lead, it turns into a standoff, or, also typical, women 'giving it up' until the resentment has reached such heights that they leave. I didn't leave, I tried to explain my needs to H over and over, drawing the line from A to B so he would understand that flowers every Friday evening = sex every Saturday morning. If that was me and I needed sex so badly, I would have a standing order with the florist!
And it's not tit-for-tat, it's seduction. It's the difference between me setting a nice table and making a good dinner versus serving hot dogs on a paper plate for every meal all week.
So on the surface, this should be easy, right?
Except that it lasted only one day. I kept fulfilling his needs, to where he even said he experienced an unprecedented connection with me, but he just stopped giving me what I needed after our 'reconciliation' weekend. He knows how to, he just stops. What am I supposed to do?
When I bring it up, he says 'if I only get more sex, I would do those things'. Well, I've tried that for 15 years and it's not happening.
So I don't withhold sex - if I feel like it, I will freely take the initiative - but I just don't want it because I feel used and abused. It feels like I give and give and don't get what I need. I think that for most women, having sex if you don't want to or feel unappreciated, feels very demeaning. You compared it to pushing a button - it's a lot more involved than that. You may feel that women have a lot of sexual power, but I don't think many women feel that power when things are not good. As a rule, we are physically smaller and weaker than men, have less of a temper, are less pushy and aggressive, and can feel bullied into doing something we did not desire. I have felt that for years with H - he has been angry many times at me for rejecting him, but anger is not good foreplay! I see how anger can come from rejection, but it just doesn't work.
I saw one thing you said in your post that jumped out at me - you said you 'couldn't win'. I know it's an expression and you may not have meant it that way, but it's something that has struck me with H, as well. I feel like we are a unit, that it's either a win-win or lose-lose for both of us in our interaction, while I feel that H acts as we are opponents and it's a win-lose game. Our discussions feel like it's his way or the highway, while I try to negotiate and find a compromise. He doesn't seem to like compromises, anything I want as an outcome that he didn't want as an outcome, he counts as a loss and becomes resentful.
Julie, thank you for hosting our conversation! I guess it can be seen as flattering that people like to hang out at your place?
M 16 yrs, WH62, P54 3 adult blended kids EA 11/13, BD1 6/14 PA fall 14, BD2 2/15 Piecing 2015, BD3 12/15 Separated 4/16 WH moved OW in 5/16 Divorced 6/15/17
Perhaps your husband wants to be able to make the choices to give you affection and gifts, but without being told. When you are told to do something it doesn't feel natural. It ends up feeling forced and the other person can end up feeling controlled. Maybe when he does something you like just act super happy and reinforce it with something you know he will love. Like a nice dinner, or I don't want to get too graphic. Be patient with it. View it as an experiment so you don't lose patience easily.
But to listen to someone asking for things gets annoying and ends up sounding like nagging and complaining. It does make you look needy as well. If they do it great, but if not you are confident and secure enough to not need It. .
I realized this about myself. A poster,( zues I think this was you !) pointed out to me that I was a bit like a bulldozer with husband and I had to laugh because he was right. I certainly have no problems communicating what I wanted and expected. But i wasn't getting it because I wasnt being smart about it. Being smart will make it so you both win.
I hope I get the chance to implement this myself.
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
I saw one thing you said in your post that jumped out at me - you said you 'couldn't win'. I know it's an expression and you may not have meant it that way, but it's something that has struck me with H, as well. I feel like we are a unit, that it's either a win-win or lose-lose for both of us in our interaction, while I feel that H acts as we are opponents and it's a win-lose game.
Yes, this was an expression. I meant 'win' as in finding a way for XW to feel like she was lucky to have me as a husband. That was really my goal as a husband. I wanted her to brag about me to her friends and family. I failed.
Quote:
When I bring it up, he says 'if I only get more sex, I would do those things'. Well, I've tried that for 15 years and it's not happening...... ......I was told by a male counselor that what I needed and asked for was reasonable, normal, and that I was unusually clear about it, and didn't play guessing games, like some women do.
Having something laid out clearly sounds like PARADISE...as does the patience you're describing.
One thing I want to clarify is that I have been stating "my side" of my marriage for a reason. It was actually uncomfortable for me because DB is about focusing on ourselves, and I am a huge proponent of not diagnosing or criticizing your partner. But I broke those rules for a reason. To help Julie and the others that had a husband that was behaving or talking in ways that I was familiar with. Some of these women have some regard for me and I was trying to make the point to not give up on their H, because the more I hear these stories the more I either think less of myself or more of their WAH's. Kyrie even said "Zues, you sound like my H" (in the context of why she was about to walk )
The harsh reality is that it is painful to reflect on how XW would describe the situation. Impossible to please, half crazy, insanely driven, extreme, so intense it was frightening at times, demanding, insensitive, bad and distant father, bi-polar and miserable to be around when I was down and exhausting to be around when I was up, porn addicted, sexually unreasonable and insatiable, controlling, emotionally abusive, neglectful, and unsupportive. Yup. She could say all of that truthfully.
What that doesn't show is how much I loved her. How I fought dragons every day to make sure she could have the life she wanted with the children. How every thing I did, truly, literally, to a fault, everything I did was dedicated to her in my mind, my promotions, my records, my pool titles, I wanted her to be proud of her man and feel lucky to have someone special. The emails and poems I wrote. The date nights I planned. The back rubs and footrubs that I loved giving her. The way that I found things she liked to do and did them with her, like puzzles, or "collaborative games" (because we found we couldn't play competitive games with each other, I was too intense ). All the times I made her breakfast in bed, or went out of my way to go to her favorite restaurant for take out. The texts I would send throughout the day. The notes I'd leave for her. And it doesn't show the pain in my heart, the betrayals, the neglect, and the resentment that plagued me from her behavior.
I will admit in writing this I do regret the hurtful things I did, and that I didn't do more to show how much she meant to me. The truth is that she was in the center of my mind and heart every moment of every day.
My overall point though is that the more I read these situations the more I wonder. Are we really any different from our WAS's? We talk on these forums as if we're all the spouses only a fool would leave, and we all have evidence that we tried so hard in our marriage, that we endured so much pain, and that ultimately we stood by our marriage. But meanwhile I'd be willing to bet that when the smoke cleared our spouses would feel the same way, the same way, the same way...and even the walking (which EVERYONE should know my stance on by now) and the affairs aren't that far off some of the ways that LBS's handle abandonment, with wanting to burn bridges, move on to someone that will love them, and getting what they deserve.
Obviously there are some truly bad apples out there. But more and more I tend to feel like we're all just broken, battered, misunderstood and neglected souls, overwhelmed by pain, and then by resentment. Shoot, I saw a good looking woman today and I had a moment's fantasy about how enjoyable it would be to show love to a good woman. Note, I didn't think about how great it would be for her to show love to me...my first desire was to show love to a good woman and make her feel special. Well, at one point I had a good woman, why didn't I do it then? Was the love I gave about having my needs met in return, or is there something even more special about simply giving my love to someone else?
My other point is that I'm far from perfect. Am I a controlling porn addict that emotionally abuses my spouse by withholds affection to force her into demeaning sexual acts? Or am I a normal man with human needs who's mediocre relationship skills left me vulnerable to the adversity of marriage?
I'm not sure anymore. I've thought about it so long I don't know I'll ever know. But my best guess is that I'm all of the above. And while I'll always strive to do better, maybe that will always be the case for all of us. That is why when I see you women with these guys I don't say "you can do better" as in find a better man. I say "you can do better" as in there is a better marriage possible with the man you have. There are some hard lines, some boundaries, some abuses and threats that can't be tolerated...but by and large this is what I'm coming to believe.
Last edited by Zues126; 01/05/1604:07 AM.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
I think the answer to a good marriage is simply being able to accept your partner for who they are, and finding someone who can accept you for who you are.
Also, we are human and we take any situation or person that is not constantly changing for granted. Hell, I even take my kids for granted. I think it's inevitable or it takes some real spiritual awareness to not do that.
Your perspective has been extremely helpful to me btw and if husband and I do ever reconcile, I feel like i will have you to thank. ( I just initiated a superficial text conversation that he reciprocated to)
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
I think the answer to a good marriage is simply being able to accept your partner for who they are, and finding someone who can accept you for who you are.
Also, we are human and we take any situation or person that is not constantly changing for granted. Hell, I even take my kids for granted. I think it's inevitable or it takes some real spiritual awareness to not do that.
Your perspective has been extremely helpful to me btw and if husband and I do ever reconcile, I feel like i will have you to thank. ( I just initiated a superficial text conversation that he reciprocated to)
Thanks Julie.
What does that mean though? That's why XW told me we weren't meant to be together. I couldn't accept her and she couldn't accept me. To me this was the cryptic women speak that didn't explain anything.
How could I wield this wisdom to navigate through marriages toughest periods?
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
To me, it means don't try to change the person or criticize them in order get them to do what you want. One example I have is that My husband was always late to everything and wanted to wake up late all the time. I was constantly complaining about this in order to get him to be like me...neurotically early to everything. In hind site, I could have let this go and focused on some of the really good traits he had. Just accept that being late was his thing. And perhaps take separate cars if I was that worried.
My husband really didn't complain about me much, until this past year.
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
Accept that they are not into flowers but appreciate that they give you plants instead. If you really want flowers buy them yourself. Or else positive reinforcement. Be patient and make no demands and inthink the person will eventually want to naturally make the other person happy when they are not pressured to do so.
When it comes to sex I think it's a different and more complicated issue. and a lot of things to consider. Sex is a physical need. But there has to be a drive or desire right? So why no desire? This has to be figured out first right? 1. Was there medical issues? Nursing and sleep deprivation plays a role physically. 2. Did she feel desirable? I think women get turned on by their own desirability. It's an ego thing. Different then simply meeting a mans basic need but feeling beautiful and sexy. 3. is spouse attracted to spouse? Most likely was at some point or wouldn't be married, so what changed this? my guess is resentment over their needs not being met whether it's fair or not.
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
Accept that they are not into flowers but appreciate that they give you plants instead. If you really want flowers buy them yourself. Or else positive reinforcement. Be patient and make no demands and inthink the person will eventually want to naturally make the other person happy when they are not pressured to do so.
When it comes to sex I think it's a different and more complicated issue. and a lot of things to consider. Sex is a physical need. But there has to be a drive or desire right? So why no desire? This has to be figured out first right? 1. Was there medical issues? Nursing and sleep deprivation plays a role physically. 2. Did she feel desirable? I think women get turned on by their own desirability. It's an ego thing. Different then simply meeting a mans basic need but feeling beautiful and sexy. 3. is spouse attracted to spouse? Most likely was at some point or wouldn't be married, so what changed this? my guess is resentment over their needs not being met whether it's fair or not.
When I 'bought my own flowers' I was called a porn addict
Seriously, thanks for your thoughts.
You know by now I work in black and white, and grey is hard for me. Sex is a super tricky one for me because:
It isn't a physical need like food or water...but it is a physical need.
It can't be satisfied by anyone outside other than your partner...but you can't pressure your partner to satisfy this need.
It's healthy to have a high drive...it's unhealthy to act on that drive compulsively.
I posted this long ago but it's probably good to rehash. One funny thing about sex addiction is that what makes it so hard is that there is a real and 'true' need behind the compulsion. So quitting heroin or alcohol or cigarettes is easier than overcoming a food or sex addiction, simply because we can't just not eat or never have sex.
People that talk about not being having expectations of your partner when sex isn't happening...I always thought "well, what if your partner just quits talking to you for years. Is expecting them to talk to you considered an 'expectation'? How is that different than expecting sex? You need to be in the mood to talk, right? You don't feel like talking when you're extremely resentful, right? If anything, sex should be more of an expectation, because hey, I can talk to anyone!
This is absurd of course, just showing you why I get headaches and struggle with this. The answer is probably more obvious intuitively than logically, I just struggle. Oh well. I've got time!
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15