Trumpet, much of what you're saying is spot on. My only concern is this:
Quote:
I think he needs another pastor to witness to him. It will need to be a 'coming to Jesus' moment, and it might rock his world, or put him on a deeper path for a while.
DBing truly isn't about changing the other person.
If her H was unwilling to do this, what then? Is there no way to have a functional and meaningful marriage without him following this path? Should she file for D if he doesn't immediately agree this is an addiction responsible for the problems in the M and agree not to view porn again?
When you ask the follow up questions you'll see why DB truly is about working on ourselves.
JB, you said it better than I ever could. Thank you.
Zues, all of those are good questions. Again, I know I cannot change him and it has to be HIM who wants to change, and do things. That hasn't happened in 12 years, and not in the nearly 1 year since the little bombs started (OW). I don't have an answer. I have NOT given an ultimatum, though I did ask that it stop.
Me: 42, H: 38 Married: 12 years (second M for me) 14D, 9D 2015 EA (PA??), porn addict, *pastor/counselor* MLC
At a counselor, he said he wanted the marriage but not to work on himself w/a IC. Piecing?
Thanks for the concern. I was expressing concern for Kyrie's H. My wife told me for years to knock off the porn - it was hurting her. I didn't. My comment above wasn't in regards to their marriage, but his health.
My wife had a one-night PA - didn't wake me up. Finally, discovering the EA in October shook me enough to stop and think what I was doing was wrong.
DB'ing is EXACTLY what you should be doing Kyrie. I don't think you're going to get your husband to stop the porn by telling him to stop. Pulling yourself away so you can work on yourself, and he might notice. It takes time.
My comment about another pastor is that someone he greatly respects might be another way to shake him from his addiction. His addiction has spiraled out of control.
I'm 8 weeks out, and the urges are much less. Some might disagree that porn rewires your brain, but man, I can tell you from personal experience that I feel different, I think different. I still have urges now and then, but I have a choice to take action on them, and I can think before I act. Before the BD, I felt like I didn't have self-control, and it was my only way to make it through a day.
DB'ing has the effect of getting the other spouse to stop and think about their actions, and then the spouse realizes what they're doing and starts to work on the M and R. The big effect is taking control of what lies before you - the path you're on, and only your path.
Again, thank you so much. Your strength is shining through (even if it doesn't feel like it!) What exactly do you mean by "Pulling away" - dropping the subject or something else? He does need another pastor. Doubt he'll trust anyone though. Respect is something he has for no one - he's a narcissist. I agree that your brain is re-wiring. Addictions proceed further and seek more intensity if fed. His porn use started going toward teen and specifically "Not a Step-Dad plays video games with hot blonde teen". That's my 14 year old ... tall, blonde, blue eyed. They bond over video games. That's what drove me to the breaking point. She's his step-daughter - no blood relation. It is getting worse....
Me: 42, H: 38 Married: 12 years (second M for me) 14D, 9D 2015 EA (PA??), porn addict, *pastor/counselor* MLC
At a counselor, he said he wanted the marriage but not to work on himself w/a IC. Piecing?
Thanks for the concern. I was expressing concern for Kyrie's H. My wife told me for years to knock off the porn - it was hurting her. I didn't. My comment above wasn't in regards to their marriage, but his health.
My wife had a one-night PA - didn't wake me up. Finally, discovering the EA in October shook me enough to stop and think what I was doing was wrong.
DB'ing is EXACTLY what you should be doing Kyrie. I don't think you're going to get your husband to stop the porn by telling him to stop. Pulling yourself away so you can work on yourself, and he might notice. It takes time.
My comment about another pastor is that someone he greatly respects might be another way to shake him from his addiction. His addiction has spiraled out of control.
I'm 8 weeks out, and the urges are much less. Some might disagree that porn rewires your brain, but man, I can tell you from personal experience that I feel different, I think different. I still have urges now and then, but I have a choice to take action on them, and I can think before I act. Before the BD, I felt like I didn't have self-control, and it was my only way to make it through a day.
DB'ing has the effect of getting the other spouse to stop and think about their actions, and then the spouse realizes what they're doing and starts to work on the M and R. The big effect is taking control of what lies before you - the path you're on, and only your path.
Trumpet, I truly understand where you are coming from.
The thing that I get concerned with is the idea of cause and effect, things that are linked deeply with co-dependent people. The idea that 'she did this, I didn't quit, she did this, it woke me up and I did', followed with 'I don't think you can get him to quit by telling him to'.
A better phrase would be 'I don't think you can get him to quit'. PERIOD.
Co-dependent people spend their entire lives twisting around addicts behavior. An alcoholic's wife might hide bottles, confront, nag, threaten, beg, plead, walk away, withhold affection, and try a million and one things to control their partner's behavior.
So, now...who is sicker? The alcoholic, or the alcoholic's wife? They are BOTH sick.
Kyrie has shown extreme tendencies in trying to control H's behavior, and co-dependent outlooks. This is dangerous to HER. When her husband posts on this forum we can help him, when it's Kyrie we need to help Kyrie.
The idea of taking her on her H's porn as if it's her problem, or the threat to the marriage that must be solved if only she can find the right approach...that is dangerous to HER.
Many people confuse DBing with co-dependency. It can be done wrong. If she is DBing with any thoughts of pulling away being a strategy to 'wake husband up', well, that won't work, because she won't really be emotionally detaching, it will be more attachment, more attempts at control, and no growth on her end as an individual.
Personally I think her finding her own happiness inside of a broken porn infested marriage is a better DB goal. How many alcoholics are there that remained married with some happiness in them? Accepting some dysfunction is a whole lot healthier than becoming pathological about trying to diagnose your partner and find a way to stamp it all out.
Zues - help me understand - what is extreme on my end? He won't post on here. In some ways, it is my problem. Heck, he blames me for his behavior (yeah, I know that's wrong but I know I'm a factor in it). It affects us both indirectly and directly. We are one, you know? But I can't "own" it or change it either, I get that. Here's an example of "finding my own happiness despite our sitch". For a while there, we had sex. A lot. He expressly said he was just scratching an itch - it was meaningless. I know that's not entirely true. He's not that kind of person, nor is he a heartless monster (usually, lol). I told him I understand. But I'd still rather be intimate like that, with you, than not. Dunno if that made sense to him or not. Sometimes I do feel cheap and very used though. But I'll take what I can and not obsess over it, if I can avoid it. Be grateful for what I have. DBing? does that sound right?
Me: 42, H: 38 Married: 12 years (second M for me) 14D, 9D 2015 EA (PA??), porn addict, *pastor/counselor* MLC
At a counselor, he said he wanted the marriage but not to work on himself w/a IC. Piecing?
Would my M have been better if my W would have accepted the addiction, worked around it, and still fed my emotional and physical needs? Probably. In Divorce Remedy, MWD talks about a W coping with a porn husband - the W was able to separate the two (the action and her H), and they moved forward. I guess it's much like living with an alcoholic spouse.
I still wouldn't have faced down my demon, though. And my kids would have eventually found out. What kind of dad would I be? Would I be respected? Would they fall in my footsteps since I was telling them it was OK, since dad did it?
[/quote] Separating the two - wow, that's really helpful. Really. How would your kids have found out?
Me: 42, H: 38 Married: 12 years (second M for me) 14D, 9D 2015 EA (PA??), porn addict, *pastor/counselor* MLC
At a counselor, he said he wanted the marriage but not to work on himself w/a IC. Piecing?
I agree that your brain is re-wiring. Addictions proceed further and seek more intensity if fed. His porn use started going toward teen and specifically "Not a Step-Dad plays video games with hot blonde teen". That's my 14 year old ... tall, blonde, blue eyed. They bond over video games. That's what drove me to the breaking point. She's his step-daughter - no blood relation. It is getting worse....
I don't know about that Trumpet. Gosh, I like you, I don't mean to be so disagreeable. But you don't know how it would've played out.
There was a study on addiction that busted a lot of myths. It had to do with the old test with the rat locked in a cage with two bottles of water, one normal, one laced with cocaine. The rat quickly got addicted to the cocaine-water and that was all he drank, eventually ODing. The conclusion was the cocaine was so addictive that people will kill themselves for it. Then another study was done, and this time the rat wasn't in a 'cage', but a rat paradise. There were hamster wheels, mazes of tubes to run through, things to chew, and other rats. And of course the two bottles of water. In this 'cage' the rat tried the cocaine water a few times, then left it alone, and never got 'addicted'.
The point is that addiction doesn't happen with a well rounded support system. It happens in a void. People that are homeless, jobless, don't have friends or family...they have no social structure set up to meet any of their needs. It is easy to want to medicate. Whereas in general people that are being fulfilled don't have the same desire to grasp onto garbage.
It's a little chicken and the egg as addiction can also cost you that support structure...my conclusion is NOT that addiction isn't in any way real, or anything like that. But unhealthy habits play a role in meeting our needs or medicating against the pain of not having our needs met. Part of recovery needs to be about recreating that support structure, not just straight abstinence. Because abstinence with perpetual pain of denial won't last. The support structure must be built as well. This is why in DBing GAL is so important. You are rebuilding your support structure to overcome the dependence on your old M.
So...had your W stayed with you, accepted your problems, and time passed, could you two have eventually pieced together a working marriage? And if so, is it at least possible that at some point you'd find yourself grateful for what she was contributing, and desiring to contribute more yourself, and realizing that porn wasn't helping something that was giving you more purpose and support and connection than a screen? I think it's possible. And it's possible that the use would've just diminished, that it would literally have gone from a compulsion to a casual usage, there are people that socially drink after all, like the majority of the population. Not sure. But to conclude that W had to leave you for you to quit porn, I can't be on board with that.
It's too close to the logic people use, that it's been proven that people that get divorced are happier five years later. That's true, but it's a false truth, because I'd bet my bottom dollar that people that remain in a miserable marriage are ALSO happy five years later. It's not the divorce that brings happiness. It's the road people walk that take them out of that pit.
My beliefs, and the beliefs this site are based on, suggest that it's not necessary to destroy a lifelong partnership and a family to find growth and change. I am sick and tired of our culture equating a 'first marriage' as a 'larva stage' of life, like you get married, have kids, start a family, then get divorced and grow from it like a snake shedding it's skin. That is complete bullcrap, it is the devil, it is the worst social problem in our country that people buy that garbage. That the point of a marriage is to be with each other through those changes and through that growth, or that lack of growth, for in sickness and in health, for better or for worse, until death we part.
Sorry Zues, humans are not rats. Porn works the dopamine/reward centers in the brain in remarkable ways. He's shut himself off from support structures, family, most everyone. And he knows it. Yet he yearns for community, family, desperately. He looks to me for much, if not all of that. I can't possibly meet all those needs, but I can serve to meet some important, top level ones. That's a lot of pressure. DBing has always felt like backing off...and he hurt whenever I'd give him wide-berth space. That's another area of confusion for me.
And your last paragraph Zues - it makes me want to cheer for you and shout, "O that everyone would feel that way!!"
Me: 42, H: 38 Married: 12 years (second M for me) 14D, 9D 2015 EA (PA??), porn addict, *pastor/counselor* MLC
At a counselor, he said he wanted the marriage but not to work on himself w/a IC. Piecing?
Kyrie, I wish I knew how to help you. So glad you have these three who have spent much time with you. I tried to get some background, but I have several questions, if you don't mind.
Has your H always been into the porn, or did it start later on the M?
Did the church ask for your H's resignation, or did he surprise them by resigning?
Were any of the members aware of his A with OW?
Unfortunately, I have known a couple of ministers who fell from grace and left their flock and families to live a lifestyle that was quite opposite to the spiritual role he tried to fill. I know two who D their W's and M the OW. It has a shattering affect on so many people.
Anyway, the two of you have tried to put distant between him and the church he pastured, is that correct? Are you attending church in your new area? What about your H?
Do you have any idea how long he has tried to live a double life? The pressure must be terrible for him, as well as you. It would seem that he's trying to turn his back on what is godly. Those who remind him, or cause him to feel guilty, pull anger out of him. I get the sense he is easily angered with you, for several reason, but just the fact you want to have a godly M doesn't seem to set well with him. It's his rebellion that wants to fight you at every turn. That, and of course, his desires of having his ego stroked. In addition to usual problems associated with a sitch such as this, he is fighting a spiritual battle, and he may recognize you standing on the side of what's godly. Therefore, it would seem to me, the more you try to coax him into confessing, or whatever, the more resistant he will be, b/c of him seeing you as pressure to conform.
I think this may be what the scriptures refer to when it says a wife shall lead her husband by the way she lives her life. No preaching to him, no pressure, no guilt. Quietly live your life the way you feel spiritually directed, and he will have to answer to God for his rebellion. You have the choice of deciding what you can handle and what you can't. You may have to take things off the table.......like......fairness, justification, cooperation, looking for evidence that he's on board, forgiveness without confession from him, etc. Only you know if you can do it, or not. And only you know if you have the faith to step back and let God do His work in your H.
Finally I've gotten to Sandi2. Thanks for being here. Apparently, it has always been there, "periodically" as he revealed. I knew he did it before we were married. When we dated, I explained how my first marriage ended: he confessed an addiction to porn and it led him to a PA. The church does not know about most of this (I expressed some concern & questions to his boss - yikes, in order to get advice about the EA/PA. He didn't have much and did not want to pursue ANYTHING unless H was willing *or* there was another witness). No one else knows, really. Our daughters don't know either. They knew OW called A LOT and Dad was really irritable or distracted but that's long over now. Yeah, it's far too common - Satan knows his business and his enemy well. We're still attending and he's still serving this and a mission church in Oregon which he visits once a month or so. Ah the double life. Hard to say. The EA had been building more or less for nearly 3 years. But it didn't really start until about a year ago. Then it ended in July or so. It was tremendous. He wanted to quit everything. His drinking intensified to scary levels sometimes. Exactly - I think I was that reminder... and how terrible that must feel. Thanks for those thoughts. You're probably right. The evidence of the "Stepdad" porn stuff scared me though...
Me: 42, H: 38 Married: 12 years (second M for me) 14D, 9D 2015 EA (PA??), porn addict, *pastor/counselor* MLC
At a counselor, he said he wanted the marriage but not to work on himself w/a IC. Piecing?
Separating the two - wow, that's really helpful. Really. How would your kids have found out?
My daughter knows - she's 14. She's having her periods, and boys are just around the corning in high school. She needs to know that porn will destroy good relationships. And having a dad with the courage to talk about it with her is how that is going to happen, no other way. She was proud to tell me she got her first period - it was an interesting moment, but I was proud that she felt confident to tell me. There is trust there. My parents never had the courage to talk much about sex, drugs, or porn. My brother and I were pretty straight laced, but still delved into stuff.
My son is 12. The talk will be soon. My daugther is 7 - too early.
I blew the EA open, and the same day I sat down with D14 and S12 with an open Bible, showing how adultery is spoken not only by the prophets, but by Jesus, God himself. And spoken about A LOT. Sex's intimacy is something God gave to us to give us a glimmer of the bond we will have with Him in heaven. It is meant for one man and one woman. I know some on the board will not like to hear that, but that's my belief.
I say this to show you where I'm coming from. You might have a different view, but from your posts, it looks like we have lots that we agree on spiritually.
M46, EXWW46 M15 T17 D20, S19, D13 M - Addiction since 1998 W EA/PA #1 2013/2014 W EA #2 June 2015... BD 1 Big D talk 9/15 BD 2 - EA/PA disc 10/30/15 Served D 1/22/16 Divorced 5/25/16 (yes, that fast!)
Giving your husband a wide birth, to hurt, and for you to not fix him is what DB'ing is about. It hurts to watch him hurt, but like you said, only he can fix himself. Moving away from the raging fire so you don't get singed... but you will, since you're his W.
His heart is hardened. It has a shell covering it, and no other love is allowed to break in, including the love of Christ. I had to admit I was broken, and I couldn't fix myself. It took a blowout to crack the shell. And then for me to continue to hit bottom. That's when you hear God whisper - he never yells. From there, it was easy to see what I needed to do. Saying I was an addict actually was easy, once I knew my trying to fix things only destroyed those around me.
Every time my W and I have had opportunity to talk about us or the R, and that was too many times in the last 2 months, I come from a humble, but hurting heart. I say I'm sorry. And if we were trying to R right now, I'd be saying it often.
Your husband is trying to find God in sex, since it's a powerful tool we've been given. He isn't finding him there. He never will, not by himself.
M46, EXWW46 M15 T17 D20, S19, D13 M - Addiction since 1998 W EA/PA #1 2013/2014 W EA #2 June 2015... BD 1 Big D talk 9/15 BD 2 - EA/PA disc 10/30/15 Served D 1/22/16 Divorced 5/25/16 (yes, that fast!)
I agree that your brain is re-wiring. Addictions proceed further and seek more intensity if fed. His porn use started going toward teen and specifically "Not a Step-Dad plays video games with hot blonde teen". That's my 14 year old ... tall, blonde, blue eyed. They bond over video games. That's what drove me to the breaking point. She's his step-daughter - no blood relation. It is getting worse....
Tell me more about this Kyrie.
JellyBxxx
JellyB - what? I meant he's watched a lot of that kind of porn recently - that's literally the title about the step-dad playing video games with hot teen. I have a 14D, his step-daughter, with which he bonds with playing video games. So he's seeking out porn that is nearly exactly like the things he enjoys doing w/her. Lately he's been more playful and affectionate towards her. He always played straight up authoritarian Father most of the time. That's slowly changed, which is fine. But this is completely different - almost like flirting. He's been the stay at home parent so LOTS of time on his hands (ugh) and with them. Seems like a movie or something. Seeing that playing out scares me that he's fantasizing and involving HER in the porn fantasy (not in real life...but it all starts in the heart/mind).
Me: 42, H: 38 Married: 12 years (second M for me) 14D, 9D 2015 EA (PA??), porn addict, *pastor/counselor* MLC
At a counselor, he said he wanted the marriage but not to work on himself w/a IC. Piecing?
