Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers WW is onboard with trying to save the M

What? How does pressuring her into waiting for 3-4 weeks to make any conclusions buy time? You think if she feels she is 100% done before then she won't break this 'agreement'? If she is willing to break a lifelong vow of marriage I don't think this will stop her from taking action. The whole thing is beyond absurd.



This is a 911 priority. Starting an R talk that lasts for hours just helps to call her attention to what's missing between you, force her to restate to you and herself all the reasons she wants out, and feel increasingly uncomfortable with the situation and forced to 'make the necessary decision'.



Actions, not words. Only communicate through actions. Words defeat the whole purpose. Don't you realize that confessing to putting emotional pressure on her is actually more emotional pressure?



Who is more dangerous? Someone that doesn't know, but knows they don't know? Or someone that doesn't know, but thinks they know?

Right now you seem completely out at sea. You are trying to get your head around something that is larger than you can comprehend. Neither of you know what it would be like to live without each other. Neither of you know what it would be like to start new relationships on the grave of your family. You keep talking like you are "figuring things out", that you have "clarity". You have no idea what you're talking about. Your emotions are going to swing back and forth for months if not years, you'll go from acceptance to denial to anger and back again many, many more times. The 'breakthroughs' and 'conclusions' that you are having now will buy you one night's worth of sleep, but the reality of divorce is so destructive you will not simply achieve any type of lasting enlightened acceptance for YEARS as you seem to think by your statements about "you being more ok with it than her".

Look. There is a reason we have consolidated a list of rules. It is because feelings are not a good compass to steer your ship by right now as they are too inconsistent and will be for too long. Thoughts are just as bad as they are 99% rationalizations that follow the feelings of the week. Instead you must have a playbook that you abide by, and an underlying mission statement that your actions and behavior support. That is why believing in God is helpful, it provides a consistent set of beliefs to strive to follow whether you feel like it or not.

There is nothing wrong with you. Everyone is crazy the first few months after BD. I'm not trying to knock you down to make you feel bad, I'm trying to knock you down because it's dangerous to think you're in control when you're not. The right thing to do is slow down, keep your mouth shut, do what's in front of you, reflect, post, journal, pray, and strive to make small positive changes in your life (180s) and learn to be an independent person so you are not clingy or needy (GAL) and so you can give her the space to do the same (Detach). I hope you can see the truth in what I'm saying so you can take a deep breath, let her go, and start to truly DB. An attitude of "I am a bit lost right now so I'm going to focus on being the best man I can be one day at a time, and trust that God will provide for me in the future, whatever that looks like" is a good start.

Zues, your words are for me as well. Thank you for them. Wow. I'll need to revisit your words later. They really hit me across the face like a 2 X 4, but that's a good thing.

The intention of this was to create a safe space for us both where we can turn down the intensity of the drama while we get clear.

Anyhow, I spoke too soon. When my W got up, she came to me and said that she is back to being certain that she wants to consider this a trial separation.

Later today, we ran into a conflict with regard to her OCD again. My need to GAL and my increased need for support from my friends and family means that I really want to have friends over. I am trying to organize a gathering on New Year's Eve tomorrow for my parents and invite some of my other friends, but my W is putting roadblocks at every turn. She doesn't want certain friends to come who she doesn't like even though they are very dear to me. She doesn't want people to invite their kids along because kids are particularly "dirty".

For reference, here here is a post from one month ago where I went into detail on my W's OCD. This problem long pre-dates her waywardness and has always been a serious issue for me, along with her avoidance behavior and complete disinterest in ever working through a single conflict collaboratively. Our counselor agrees that my W does have a serious OCD problem. She and other friends have advised me that I really should stop being a doormat and tolerating this by being compliant with it and minimizing my needs as an equal member of our household. I have suppressed my anger about this for long enough and now that I'm even more in need of connecting with other friends than ever, I just can't put up with this anymore.

I know that many people here are entirely against divorce, no matter what. I am not... and I am feeling more certain than ever that this is what I want now, for multiple reasons:

1. I simply cannot live with a woman who has an OCD problem like this and won't even admit that it is a problem, and is completely selfish about it to the extent of causing extreme resentment in me.
2. I have tried throughout our entire R to respectfully discuss things when I recognize a conflict or problem that poses a threat to the M. This includes confronting my W many, many times as long as 4 years ago about her obvious fading attraction to me. She always avoided it and wouldn't even talk about it. I need a partner who is actually willing to talk through problems with me and grow together in the M.
3. She has cheated on me, was dishonest and hid it for 2 years. This caused extreme damage to my trust as well as to the way that I see her as a person. I really don't know if I can put this behind me, even if she was to become interested in trying to earn back my trust.
4. She hid doubts about getting married from the very beginning. She never disclosed the fact that she really didn't want to have a child, and went ahead and had our son anyways because she was too scared to confront me about it. She hid this for 8 years!
5. She does not want a 2nd child, and I really do.
6. She is very different from me and we have few interests in common. We have completely different friends and different lives. When I try to do things together, she has always resisted, even long before she became wayward.
7. I have been feeling very good since yesterday about the idea of splitting.
8. My parents divorced when I was 12, and it wasn't nearly as damaging as many divorces that I hear about. Both my sister and I were glad that they did. Both of my parents ended up in much happier 2nd marriages which have lasted and are still going. So I have a good model for how to divorce in a way that is least damaging.
9. My W and I are mutually aligned on this now. We both want a clean divorce and we want to stay friends and put our son first. No lawyers, just a mediator. I'm confident that we can do it in a way that isn't messy and minimizes damage to our son.

The title of this thread is "WW is onboard with trying to save the M". Your opening post from 3 weeks ago was totally different than this. Yet you continue to believe that whatever you're thinking and feeling today is an objective assessment because it feels so right at the moment.

If you can't see the problem then you can't solve it. Either you learn some humility and stop empowering your feelings and rationalizations, or they will lead you down a path of destruction.

OK, zeusy out on this. You're a smart guy. I think too smart for your own good. But it's your journey.

I'm concerned about what you point out Zeus. For this reason, I don't intend to act on anything too quickly. My W agrees. We want to take it slow and not burn any bridges.

In the list of reasons why I'm leaning out right now, #1, #2, #5, and #6 are not things that I have been flip flopping on or only feeling/thinking recently. These are things that were seriously bothering me about the M for years, consistently. I tolerated these things by minimizing my own needs and pushing down my anger for years. Overall, it felt worth it because there were enough good things about the M that I could tolerate the bad. Her affairs pushed it into the red for me, and for the past 2.5 months I have been grasping for a sense of hope that somehow this could all work out in the end, that we could use it as a springboard to finally face our issues and grow together. It simply isn't unfolding this way and I have lost all but a very small thread of hope, which has been increasingly painful to continue trying to hold on to.

I simply cannot tolerate her OCD behavior anymore, so I am shifting into kindly declining to be complicit anymore. This is making me feel much better about not abandoning myself anymore but with the unfortunate side effect of angering her and pushing us farther apart. I have never set boundaries regarding this before and now that I am doing so, she really doesn't like it. It's quite obvious that we can't live harmoniously in the same house given the reality of this conflict.

In a way, I feel like these affairs have been a gift to wake me up and make me seriously look at the big picture. I don't know if anyone here will support me, but I really will need support if I do ultimately end up deciding to move forward with a mutual decision to separate and/or divorce. I still wish there was some way I could avoid this, but I just can't do it alone, and I really don't believe that my W can change in the ways that I would need her to in order to start doing all the extremely hard work that it would take.

I will give it more time just in case, but this is where I'm at now.

Makes sense. This is where you're at now.

Just remember that every WAS thought the same thing about the LBS's on this forum but amazing changes happened. The idea with DB is to change yourself first.

I like the idea of more time and taking it slow. Trust no conclusions.

Hi JGuy,

Tough spot, but Zues is right, in your posts above your emotions are in full control. I have similar issues at times. Definitely give it some time which it sounds like you will.

The rest of this post is great too.

But at least read this part like a dozen times.

The intention of this was to create a safe space for us both where we can turn down the intensity of the drama while we get clear.
I understand what you are going for with the idea. But in practice, it makes zero sense. The timing is so arbitrary and the atmosphere isnt going to be any "safer". The only way to turn down the intensity is to turn down the intensity. It has nothing to do with this 3-4 week "grace period".

Anyhow, I spoke too soon. When my W got up, she came to me and said that she is back to being certain that she wants to consider this a trial separation.
Oh? How did that 3-4 weeks turn out?

Later today, we ran into a conflict with regard to her OCD again. My need to GAL and my increased need for support from my friends and family means that I really want to have friends over. I am trying to organize a gathering on New Year's Eve tomorrow for my parents and invite some of my other friends, but my W is putting roadblocks at every turn. She doesn't want certain friends to come who she doesn't like even though they are very dear to me. She doesn't want people to invite their kids along because kids are particularly "dirty".
From what you describe, I assume that this isnt the first time youve tried to do something like this. How are you trying to arrange.handle this differently than before? If you know it hasnt worked before, why would this time be any different? Instead of thinking of your W as putting up roadblocks, how can you compromise?

For reference, here here is a post from one month ago where I went into detail on my W's OCD. This problem long pre-dates her waywardness and has always been a serious issue for me, along with her avoidance behavior and complete disinterest in ever working through a single conflict collaboratively.
I think that we have discussed some of that before. She doesnt want to approach problems in the same way as you, so she is wrong in your eyes.

Our counselor agrees that my W does have a serious OCD problem. She and other friends have advised me that I really should stop being a doormat and tolerating this by being compliant with it and minimizing my needs as an equal member of our household. I have suppressed my anger about this for long enough and now that I'm even more in need of connecting with other friends than ever, I just can't put up with this anymore.

I know that many people here are entirely against divorce, no matter what. I am not... and I am feeling more certain than ever that this is what I want now, for multiple reasons:
Nobody here is in favor of maintaining every single marriage 100% of the time. But, the reasons for divorcing should be incredibly convincing. Have you read DR? The first chapter that goes through all kinds of statistics and impacts of divorce is incredibly harrowing. I dont think I would get divorced based on a feeling or two...

1. I simply cannot live with a woman who has an OCD problem like this and won't even admit that it is a problem, and is completely selfish about it to the extent of causing extreme resentment in me.
So, it's been 10 years together, and NOW, all of a sudden, you CANNOT live like this? Seems convenient.

I understand how resentment can build after years of unmet needs. Ill ask again about if you have read DR? Basically, the point is that people can change. What can YOU do to instill a POSITIVE change in your W's behaviors?

2. I have tried throughout our entire R to respectfully discuss things when I recognize a conflict or problem that poses a threat to the M. This includes confronting my W many, many times as long as 4 years ago about her obvious fading attraction to me. She always avoided it and wouldn't even talk about it. I need a partner who is actually willing to talk through problems with me and grow together in the M.
What you said doesnt sound terribly respectful. Again, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is madness. What have you done differently?

3. She has cheated on me, was dishonest and hid it for 2 years. This caused extreme damage to my trust as well as to the way that I see her as a person. I really don't know if I can put this behind me, even if she was to become interested in trying to earn back my trust.
Fair. But are you ready to push divorce forward without KNOWING for sure?

4. She hid doubts about getting married from the very beginning. She never disclosed the fact that she really didn't want to have a child, and went ahead and had our son anyways because she was too scared to confront me about it. She hid this for 8 years!
I wouldnt believe anything she said while she was/is wayward. Its very easy to rewrite history. My XW told me she was unhappy for many years before we separated. Even though we had a second child during that time. Do you really think a person could be unhappy for, say, 5 years, and have her spouse really not know?

5. She does not want a 2nd child, and I really do.
Again, youre listening to things she is saying NOW. Do you really want a second child. with her. right now. ?

6. She is very different from me and we have few interests in common. We have completely different friends and different lives. When I try to do things together, she has always resisted, even long before she became wayward.
And how did you approach this? Proposing things you want to do? Asking her what she wants to do? Picking something to do you think she would like?

7. I have been feeling very good since yesterday about the idea of splitting.
How do you feel after you eat a delicious meal? How do you feel three days later? Is it the same?

8. My parents divorced when I was 12, and it wasn't nearly as damaging as many divorces that I hear about. Both my sister and I were glad that they did. Both of my parents ended up in much happier 2nd marriages which have lasted and are still going. So I have a good model for how to divorce in a way that is least damaging.
Sure. And here you are, right? So what kind of example are you setting for your child? Be aware that having good second marriages is RARE. The divorce rate is high. The divorce rate for second marriages is HIGHER.

9. My W and I are mutually aligned on this now. We both want a clean divorce and we want to stay friends and put our son first. No lawyers, just a mediator. I'm confident that we can do it in a way that isn't messy and minimizes damage to our son.
Easy to say. Next to impossible to do. Heard that from my XW as well. Not at all how it went down.

I spent last night and this morning taking in what Zeus and Azzork have said. Until recently I have been solidly in the state of "wanting to save the M" and have been subject to the feelings surrounding that. In this state, I feel like all I want to do is talk to my W, work on the R, try to rebuild, etc. I am recognizing that you guys are right, those things are a dead end right now. In this state, I have trouble sleeping at night and I get ongoing, unbearable back and neck tension from the feelings of anger and of having no control over my life.

Only in the past week have I began to explore a different state of "wanting to end the M", which has brought a very different set of positive feelings, which are motivating me to do the exact things that you guys are advising me to do. In this state, I feel a strong impulse to GAL, find myself again, begin really working on myself, etc. I feel excited about detaching and what the future holds. I feel a glimpse of freedom from the many restrictions that this M has placed on me, especially the way that I have felt trapped like a prisoner in my own house because of the way that I have accommodated my W's OCD. In this state, I sleep well at night and my back and neck tension goes away and I feel a sense of control over my own life.

I'm really confused about the advice I'm getting here because it seems like an unnatural hybrid between these two states, which goes strongly against the grain of the way my emotions work. You guys keep pushing me to avoid the impulse of wanting to end the M, yet you also keep pushing me to do all of the things that I would be naturally motivated to do if I was to embrace that state and go with it. I feels impossible for me to remain in the state of "wanting to save the M" while proceeding with all of the things that I would need to do if I was in the opposite state. My emotions just don't work that way... it's very confusing!!

What am I missing here? Is there some hybrid state between the two that I can embrace which can set me on a path to doing all of the right things, but without burning any bridges that would prevent me from saving the M? Maybe I need to embrace "ending the M in its current form". ie: Walking away from the old R once and for all to let it die, but without being closed to the possibility that a totally new R with my W could take it's place in the future.

Hmmm.. that feels right at the moment, but I'm not supposed to follow feelings. Arghhh... so confusing!

JGuy feeling very lost today.